Chris Jordan Hello and welcome to the African Cities Research Consortium podcast. My name is Chris Jordan. I’m the communications manager with ACRC and today I’m joined as a co-host by Rosebella Apollo, our uptake lead in Nairobi. Welcome Rosebella.

Rosebella Apollo Thank you, Chris. I’m happy to be here.

Chris Jordan And we’re also in Manchester with some of the key people in our team from Harare. We have George Masimba who’s the head of programmes at Dialogue on Shelter. Hello, George.

George Masimba Hi, how are you? Glad to be here.

Chris Jordan Great, yeah, good thanks. We’ve also got Shiela Muganyi, also at Dialogue on Shelter, who is heading up the programme around informal settlements and climate resilience. Hi Shiela.

Shiela Muganyi Hi Chris, hi Rosebella, thank you for inviting us.

Chris Jordan Our pleasure. It’s lovely to have you here. So, we wanted to talk to you about some of the work that you’ve got going on in Harare at the moment and some of the surrounding issues. One of the longest standing projects that you’ve had, I think the first one you started, was around urban markets, which are a really key element of the city, providing livelihoods and an economic base for thousands of people. So could you tell me a bit about what the project set out to do and how it’s developed over time?

George Masimba Thank you very much, Chris. Indeed, the work that we’ve done in Harare started with the urban markets work, which I’m going to talk about, and we’ve also had a component around informal settlements, which my colleague Shiela will talk about. So in terms of the urban markets work, like you rightly pointed out, it was as a result of the realisation that markets play in the city in terms livelihoods. But also taking into account the, apart from these opportunities in terms of livelihoods benefits, there are also challenges in these markets, particularly with regards to access to infrastructure and services in these markets and also even the policies that relate to making these spaces more inclusive, more resilient and sustainable as part and parcel of the mainstream city. So, our projects sought to engage with the market associations from across the city of Harare and we targeted about 13 markets from within Harare, and the broad agenda around the project was to undertake what I would consider as three or four elements. So, firstly, it looked at data collection, taking into account that the work that we’re doing is part and parcel of the ACRC action research project. So data collection was a very key element in terms of trying to understand the realities of the markets in Harare. Secondly, there was also a huge component around policy-related processes. And what do we mean here? We were focusing on supporting policy-related engagement with the city in terms of identifying areas that require strengthening, in terms of ensuring that we have the right institutional environment where traders can flourish and the markets as well. And then thirdly, we also had a significant component that focuses on capacity strengthening in terms of the market associations, and also even capacity strengthening in terms of state institutions taking into account the theory of change of ACRC, which speaks to enhanced state capacity as one of the key pillars that unlocks inclusive urban growth. Then, lastly, we had a component around undertaking physical upgrades as a way of demonstrating what can be done in terms of improving these markets when traders, the city, and all the stakeholders come on board in terms trying to solve these issues. So that’s the focus, or that was the focus of the work that we’re doing in Harare. And we started with focusing on one market. Where we made some interventions in terms of the hardware related interventions and this is Glen View 8 Furniture Complex. It’s located towards the southwestern part of the capital of Harare. This, as the name suggests, the market is involved in carpentry items, but beyond that there are also related livelihoods activities that are also happening within the same market apart from the furniture making businesses. So we did collect data, supported by academics and also communities, taking into account the community knowledge component that is a very huge component in terms of the African Cities Research Consortium action research. And then after collecting data, together with the traders, we then sat down to reflect in terms of what was this data telling us. And in terms of the data, it told us about a lot of gaps with respect to infrastructure. And that speaks to issues of access to water and sanitation, for example, and also even drainage in the case of flooding during rain season. But also another element that was so profound or prominent in terms of the findings from Glen View relates to the perennial fire outbreaks that we have become accustomed to in terms of Glen View 8 furniture complex. And if I may say this, since the market was established in 2006, there’s been 15 fire outbreaks in Glen View. So part of the priorities that informed the interventions were hugely informed and influenced by some of these issues that were highlighted or came out of the data processes. And so we began a process of sitting down together with the city, because the the market is owned by the city. But there are also other critical stakeholders including the provincial and central government in terms of supporting SMEs or informal sector. So we worked out how we would then come up with the hardware interventions that sought to respond to some of these priorities identified. And we identified collectively together with the traders WASH interventions as some of the low-hanging fruits as it were that could be rolled out in terms of infrastructure upgrades. And to date I’m happy to note that that work was completed in the first phase. And apart from these hardware interventions, we also learned a significant amount of lessons in terms of what this is teaching us about markets. Despite issues to do with their contested nature, we noted that market associations, traders – they are willing to contribute towards addressing some of the challenges that are faced in these markets and willing in terms of ideas, willing and even in terms resources. But more often you find that there are no opportunities for the different stakeholders to come onto the same table and chart some pathways for bringing these required services into these markets. So that’s something that we have learned through this process, through the ACRC action research in Harare. And just to also note that, apart from Glen View, there were also related interventions that we undertook that touched other markets beyond just the Glen View Furniture Complex. So, for example, the policy engagements that I spoke about earlier involved other markets, in terms of ensuring that whatever institutional frameworks that would be in place would also then enable establishment or supporting markets just beyond the one that had been targeted. And even the learnings, we had opportunities for peer-to-peer learning across these different markets, learning from each other in terms how they were addressing or resolving some of the challenges that they are facing in their markets. And we had an exchange visit with Bulawayo, which is the second capital in Zimbabwe, where Glen View traders were able to also see some of the governance approaches that were being used in terms of administering similar markets. So really, quite a number of lessons that we took away from the first phase and which we hope are going to be very useful in terms of informing the way that lies ahead, in terms of the phase two that is just starting now. And we have plans to, having done Glen View, we have plans to sit down together with the City of Harare and relevant stakeholders in terms of which other markets can we get into. And also supported by the lead for the action research project, which is Development Governance Institute. So that’s what we have done, that’s where we are in terms of the urban markets project, and yeah, we are happy we are here, we are happy we have learnt some considerable amount of lessons through this action research project.

Chris Jordan That’s really fascinating to hear and I know you mentioned the fire outbreaks that regularly happen at Glen View, but also part way through the research that you were doing, there was a major fire at the main urban market, the Mbare market. Did that create opportunities for you? Did it open more space or dialogue around the issues of markets more broadly?

George Masimba Thank you Chris for that question. Indeed, in as much as the fire was very unfortunate, as would always be the case, I think it also presented opportunities for engaging the state. For example, soon after the fire, we were able to facilitate hosting of a policy seminar that drew the city and central government and many other relevant stakeholders together around the Urban Informality Forum, which is a platform that we co-created together with our partners and hosted within the University of Zimbabwe. So, we were able to come up with a policy seminar that specifically focused on disasters in urban markets through, as a result, or following the outbreak at Mbare. And this helped in terms of spotlighting the disaster-related challenges that are faced in urban market and begin to push the key stakeholders, in this case, city and central government authorities, in terms of how do we ensure that markets become resilient against the backdrop of such incidences as the perennial fires that continue to affect markets in Harare? So it indeed provided an opportunity to have some conversations and make out some strategies in terms of how do you support markets so that they become fire resilient, as it were.

Rosebella Apollo Thank you very much, George. Perhaps, just to take us slightly back, I wonder – traditionally, Dialogue on Shelter has focused heavily on engagements with informal settlements and informal settlers. This switch now to working with the urban markets. How do you transition very seamlessly? Like you rightfully put it, you have managed to switch the different sides from the informal settlements to the market and have successfully still put up quite some tangible interventions. How do manage to seamlessly transition, but most importantly, how do you make the inroads for that kind of change?

George Masimba Thank you, Rosebella, for that question. So indeed, the urban markets space and the informal settlements space are two different things, but they are also similar in the sense that you are dealing with informal spaces. So, that informality component or element contributes to our capacity to then transition from this one space to the other, because in many respects, some of the realities or the challenges that they are dealing with are more or less the same. So, you talk of informal settlement, issues of infrastructure gaps are very common, and the same applies to markets, particularly if they are informal and even formal markets. So that common thread in terms of informality running through these different spaces helped us to get around that transition and to be comfortable in terms for dealing with this new space that we were entering into. But I also want to note that we learned a great deal of lessons working with informal markets in terms of how you need to adjust some of the tools and strategies, approaches that you deploy in informal settlements. For example, previously when you are undertaking data collection in informal settlements, the notion of time does not come very much on the forefront, but when you’re dealing with traders and you’re conducting research, time becomes money. And that’s one thing that we learned and it informed the way we’re undertaking data collection processes, taking into account that you are dealing with people whose time is essentially money. So you’ve got to then respond accordingly or adjust accordingly in terms of how you approach the data collection processes, but even the mobilisation processes, all that needs to respond to this different context in terms of markets. So yeah, it was indeed a different space, but we also took a number of lessons in terms of how we could approach that.

Chris Jordan Great and this work, as you said, is ongoing. There’s more to come. Where would you like to get it to? Where do you think the opportunities for reform and improvements around markets are in Harare?

George Masimba So, in terms of opportunities for reform in Harare, they pointed at many things and in terms of what I could talk about right now is how do you leverage traders’ resources in terms of ensuring that markets are upgraded? Because I think, based on the findings, it’s an area that is full of missed opportunities in terms of how traders can contribute towards improvement of their trading spaces, which is something that we are borrowing and learning from the informal settlements space, where communities take a huge part in terms of contributing towards upgrading. And we think there is merit in replicating, of course, adapting that model into markets where you leverage on their resources, both in terms of financial resources, as well as their intellectual resources, in terms how markets can be improved. So that’s an area where we think there is a lot of potential for reform, and we are happy to note that in phase two, a huge focus of our work will look at how do you come up with alternative infrastructure and land tenure models for markets in Harare – the work that is going to be led by Development Governance Institute. And that for us provides the basis and foundation for thinking through processes related to policy reform that respond to the broader agenda that ACRC is pursuing in terms of pushing inclusive urban reform. So, one, land tenure. Two, infrastructure financing in terms of the contribution of traders.

Chris Jordan Thanks, George, and we might come back to some of those broader issues of reform and coalitions and how change is being moved forward in the city, but can I now turn to you, Shiela? So can you tell us a bit about the project that you’re leading around climate change and improving resilience within informal settlements?

Shiela Muganyi Thank you so much, Chris. So the ISCCA project, the Informal Settlements Climate Change Action project, is using climate change as an entry point to slum upgrading in Harare. So at the same time, it’s also strengthening the locally-led adaptation actions that are already happening in the communities and also building the city’s capacity to implement its own framework in terms of slum upgrading. So this is what ISCCA is trying to focus on in Harare’s informal settlements and city-wide.

Chris Jordan And what have you done so far? Has this been research on the ground in terms of looking at different solutions or what’s happened?

Shiela Muganyi Yes, so what we have done so far in the first phase, we have done vulnerability assessments. So the first phase was mainly on research and now we are focusing, this is our second phase, we are now focusing on action, on the action bit. So we have done the vulnerability assessments, we’ve done the mapping, trying to map the hazards, the risks in the communities. And also trying to understand what really happens, what are the causes of these impacts. And then we also developed, we co-developed the communities’ climate change action plans and these are the actions that they are also using to do the locally-led actions in their communities. And also they are using these to also advocate for slum upgrading of their communities. So, for example, the main issue in the communities that’s been coming out, despite the climate change impacts is the issue of tenure. And that’s the biggest challenge that’s preventing the communities themselves to do a locally-led action that can be long-term. Most of the communities are focusing on short-term actions. So the project now is coming in to try and have these conversations with the city, at least for them to understand what’s happening on the ground, the actions that are being done, and also the efforts of the communities to be embedded in the city’s framework. And also, we have been trying to do Urban Informality Forums that bring together the state, the local authorities, different other actors that are relevant to the work that we are doing. So in December on the 5th, we held an Urban Informality Forum, which was mainly focusing on Dzivarasekwa Extension towards other road designs. So this also we made sure that we brought the state to the grassroots because if we looked back, when we used to do these Urban Informality Forums, we used to have meetings in spaces like this, in spaces at the University of Zimbabwe, in spaces at the City of Harare Chambers, and then this time we shifted from that because we want the city to be involved in the plans, in all the action or the work that the communities are doing, and also see how they can support them around the challenges that they are facing. So this is also one of the things that we have done and achieved. And also, in the first phase, we had a project management committee, which is in partnership with the City of Harare, Zimbabwe Homeless People’s Federation, and Dialogue on Shelter. And some community representatives also managed to be part of these conversations. So the main purpose of this project management committee, it was established around 2010 during the Harare Slum Upgrading Project. So we revived it when the ISCCA project came. So what we achieved from the first project management committee meeting that we held in May last year was the relevant departments of the city of Harare then came in to support Tafara’s informal settlement by issuing them a partial compliance certificate. They also issued them with lease agreements that they are in the process of signing and also approved house plans. So this is a process that’s still in place and almost 75% of the communities managed to sign their lease agreements and to have their own approved house plans. So this was the main achievement or a milestone from this project management committee that we can still embrace. And then, Tafara informal settlement, now we started to do permanent construction on the ground so right now I think it’s plus or minus 30 houses that have been built to roof level. Right now, work is in progress, they’ve been sending photos of what’s happening right now, so this is a milestone for us. And we also had another meeting on the 27th of February, another project management committee some two weeks ago, and we also then tried to see how we can also work into the 11 settlements that are focused by the ISCCA project. So there is a process of regularisation that’s happening in the city of Harare right now. And the relevant department, also one of the main officials, then asked us if we can meet and then also see which of the settlements that we are planning to work with or we are working with so that we can try and see how we can work together with the city of Harare. And right now, in that same meeting, they also reported that they have started regularising 150 informal settlements in Harare, so it’s one of the, during the Harare Slum Upgrading Project, I think we managed to sign a memorandum of understanding between us and the city of Harare, and from this we then produced a slum upgrading strategy, where there are some issues of regularisation policies inside this. So I think they have also started to institutionalise or operationalise the strategy that we produced together. So these are some of the milestones here. I can also talk about the settlement to settlement visits that are ongoing, which are also have been very helpful between the communities, and also another milestone is that the communities themselves are speaking directly to the theory of change reform coalition. The settlements themselves then decided to establish an informal settlements network, which they use as a platform of sharing ideas, sharing concerns, sharing what’s happening in real-time on their settlements. And this informal settlements network has proved to be one of the networks that’s been very helpful in these communities. By that, it was an informal settlement network that started as 11 settlements, only that are focusing on the ISCCA project, but it has now gone beyond the 11 settlements and now we are calling it a city-wide informal settlements network.

Chris Jordan That’s really great and loads that’s happened. I’m really interested in that originally, this was a project that used climate as its focus and its entry point, but it seems like a lot of the positive changes that you’ve seen have been around regularisation and tenure security and some of the bigger, you know, possibly like harder things to achieve around this sort of process. So how’s that worked? Is that just the City of Harare recognising that in order to improve time and resilience, that tenure was a precursor to that?

Shiela Muganyi Yeah, so just because we are having these regular meetings, regular conversations, I think there are a lot of, there are series of conversations or engagements that we’ve been doing, bigger meetings, smaller meetings, you know, with the city of Harare. So I think it is something that the city is embracing. It’s something that the city has also started to look at on another lens. And the other thing that I think is making this relationship stronger between the communities and the City of Harare is that through the Urban Informality Forums and the meetings that we do together, including the affected community representatives, they speak for themselves in these communities. Now they even know that this is the Office of the Surveyor. This is the Office of the Housing Director. They are even known by their names. So I think it’s something that we’ve seen as a catalytic, it’s catalysing, it is trying to speak to what the project’s focus is on.

Rosebella Apollo Perhaps Shiela, you’ve spoken rightly of the involvement of the City of Harare in the processes of the ISCCA project and the bigger reform around regularisation in Harare. I wonder, the Urban Informality Forum has transitioned from being in the university and formal spaces, and now you have brought it to the community. How has that landed? What kind of effects are we seeing in terms of that engagement with the community members, now that the Forum is closer to the community?

Shiela Muganyi Thank you, Rosebella, for that. I think the first achievement for us is actually to bring the state, the ministry, or the minister of state to the ground. And meeting the community and exchanging, I can say, positive conversations. So this is one of our achievements, because it is very hard, especially to bring the ministry down to the people. And then secondly, like I said, the last that we had, it was on the 5th of December 2025. And this was focusing mainly on the designs of the Dzivarasekwa Extension road, which is very damaged by the floods, there are no proper drainage systems in the community. So at that time in December, it was raining in Harare. And so when they came, the roads were flooded, they could not even see where to step when they’re walking. So it was kind of something that had an impact. So the City of Harare and the ministry then came back after this meeting and also tried to have dialogues with the specific community. So there are road designs that are in place right now, and the City of Harare is also trying to help with this organisation that’s helping the City to put in place the designs. The designs are now there, but they are not yet approved. So it’s something that we are seeing, we are just waiting for the approval of the designs, and if they are there, then maybe we can now see how to support the community. Because Dzivarasekwa Extension has already started contributing savings towards the road. So they are just waiting maybe for the designs. And the other thing is that the community itself has had a meeting with their own councillor, the politicians of the community, the ones who also sometimes we say them, these, they call the shots. So they are always being part of the meetings that we hold with the communities. And so the last meeting that we had, the community then agreed to start cleaning wherever they are supposed to start. They started to do any other job that they are supposed to do in preparation for the main work. So this is what’s happening. And so I think just because of the commitment of the state themselves and the local authority in this and also their attendance in our meetings shows that at least we have some pathway.

Chris Jordan And I’m also quite struck by the fact that in both projects, the Urban Informality Forum seems to have played a really crucial role in helping to bring together state, communities and researchers, and has played an important sort of catalytic first stage. Could you just tell us a little bit more about the Urban Informality Forum, George, and where it came from and how it operates?

George Masimba Thank you very much, Chris, for the question. So the history of the Urban Informality Forum can be traced back to 2018, when we created this space together with our colleagues, the Development Governance Institute, ourselves, Dialogue on Shelter, Zimbabwe Homeless People’s Federation, the Shelter and Homage Trust and the University of Zimbabwe’s planning school. So the logic around creating this space, we looked at it as a learning and policy space, really. The logic being to create some platform that allows for neutral conversations, if I can put it that way, where communities, the state and civil society actors have got the opportunity to talk about what is not working within the city, without necessarily pointing fingers at each other. So we thought the university as a convening space allowed us to engage in these less contested conversations around how do we think of, how do make our cities work, what is needed in terms of policies for our cities to work? So that’s when we established that space and we would identify themes of interest related to informality, various themes of interest related to informality. For example, issues to do with participatory slum upgrading were discussed in some of the earlier seminars. Issues to do with climate change, climate resilience have been discussed. Issues to do with evictions also, stuff that would not normally be conversed with the state and communities on the same table. But we created this platform that allowed people to reflect on their experiences of the city, particularly from an informality lens, if you want. And to date, we have held plus or minus 15 sessions or seminars that have seen officials from the local government, central government, making presentations alongside communities and academics in terms of what needs to be done to make our cities more inclusive, more sustainable and more resilient. And like Shiela indicated, we have also over the last years extended the geography to informal settlements, where all these challenges that we are talking about are being faced. So getting your academics, students also from the universities and officials from the state to get a chance of having this first-hand experience with some of these challenges that communities are encountering in their settlements. But I think one of the most important aspects that has come out of this space is creating that enabling environment where communities can interact with the state without necessarily throwing accusations at each other. A space that allows to present some learnings, ideas from other jurisdictions in terms of what has been tested, what has worked elsewhere, and how it can be adapted in our own local context and come up with solutions that are not only inclusive, but solutions that provide lasting solutions to the challenges that communities are facing. So, that’s the history of the Urban Informality Forum in Harare, and we think we are not there yet, but so far we are very excited about the progress that we have registered through this platform that we call Urban Informality Forum.

Chris Jordan That’s really interesting to hear and I know you’ve inspired lots of other ACRC city teams, our colleagues in Lagos are looking at the moment about how they might be able to set up something similar. Do you think it is an approach that might be useful across other African cities?

George Masimba Yeah, I think it’s an approach that might be very useful in other African cities and it resonates with the approach and logic within ACRC which encourages collaborations between universities, civil society organisations, communities and the state. So I’m imagining, given the the kind of partners or stakeholders that we have under ACRC, where we have different higher institutions of learning collaborating with civil society organisations, it would be very easy to replicate, but of course adapt based on some of the contextual realities in the different cities, under ACRC. I’m imagining that it’s a concept and approach that can be easily replicated elsewhere and provide opportunities for pushing and advancing inclusive urban reforms in African cities.

Rosebella Apollo Perhaps, George, you have rightfully stated that the context across African cities really differs and might be different. Should other cities be interested in setting up, what are some of like the quick reflections around the basics that they need to do to get an Urban Informality Forum?

George Masimba Thank you very much, Rosebella. I think I will refer to an article that I wrote last year that speaks to our experiences around the Open Informality Forum. And I think one of the things that I would do, think is important, it relates to the geography, where you convene these seminars, matters. And we started with the university, we think that was very strategic, because it provides that neutrality in terms of enabling conducive engagements to be undertaken between different parties around inclusive urban reforms. That’s one. Then two, I think it’s also about how you ensure that you deal with power dynamics around ensuring that community voices are given an opportunity to be highlighted and amplified in these spaces, because you risk excluding communities, bringing them on board but excluding them at the same time, if you are not careful about the issue to do or respond to power dynamics that come with the different stakeholders that we are talking about. So that’s the second thing, that sensitivity to power-related issues. Then three, there is also need to take into account the urban politics of the city. I think there’s need to be conscious of the dynamics related to the urban politics of each and every given city that you are working in, so that you also approach the space in ways that will enable meaningful, honest conversations, that will give rise to the inclusive urban reforms that we are talking about. So that element is also key in terms of for those cities that may be interested in experimenting with this idea. But I should also hasten to point out, a lot will also depend on what organically emerges from these processes in terms of what should be the best pathway for establishing a sustainable platform for honest engagement among different parties around urbanism.

Chris Jordan Well, it will be fascinating to see whether any of the other ACRC cities can get something similarly effective going. So we will track that carefully. And I’ll make sure that that paper that you mentioned is linked down in the show notes. And it is also part of a wider special issue on reform coalitions that covers a lot of the ground and a lot the issues that we’ve been talking about more broadly today. But yeah I just want to say, George and Shiela, thank you so much for joining us today, thank you for sharing your insights. Rosebella, thank you as well.

Rosebella Apollo Thank you very much. It’s been an insightful conversation.

Chris Jordan And we will look on with care to see what happens next in Harare. Good luck guys!

George Masimba Thank you, Chris, thank you, Rosebella, for having us here. Bye!

Outro You have been listening to the African Cities Podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Intro Welcome to the African Cities podcast.

Diana Mitlin So thank you, Ola and Alex, for coming up to Manchester to do the podcast. I think it would be great if we have one-sentence introductions, so that people listening know who you are. My name is Diana Mitlin. I’m interviewing you about housing – as you know, a topic very dear to my heart and central to my work. And I’m CEO of the African Cities Research Consortium. Ola, over to you.

Ola Uduku Hi, my name’s Professor Ola Uduku and I’m head of School of Architecture at the University of Liverpool and I’m also co-director of the housing domain research group with my colleague.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani My name is Alexandre Apsan Frediani. I’m a principal researcher at the International Institute for Environment and Development, where I co-lead IIED’s work on housing justice.

Diana Mitlin So thanks so much, Alex and Ola. So I think it would be good if you just start perhaps by very briefly describing the housing domain work and the seven cities in which you were active in the foundation phase. Who would like to start off with that?

Ola Uduku I’m happy to take the lead. The housing domain is one of the constituent domains of the African Cities Research Consortium work. But we were tasked particularly with looking at housing and indeed how the coalitions around housing feed into developments, particularly in African cities and the effects of housing, so to speak – both the key areas and also crosscutting themes. What we looked at particularly was the housing situation in seven cities that we were involved in. And I think maybe if we take a city each we can discuss what we found out from each of the cities. So possibly starting from Freetown. Alex?

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Great. Yeah, I think in each city different priority issues start emerging as key aspects to the engagement around housing. I think in Freetown, one very important dominant contextual issue is that the housing policy framework hasn’t been fully developed as a national framework for housing. And it’s an effort that the national government has been trying to get off the ground for a long time, but it just hasn’t been able to make progress on it. And in the ground in Freetown we’ve seen continuous housing deprivations perpetuated over time – a context not only shaped by increasing population growth or migration flows from outside areas of Freetown towards Freetown, but to do a lot with how the housing system is reproducing itself in the context of Freetown – not necessarily leading to mass evictions, like in other contexts, but affecting a lot people living, especially in the context of rental housing that end up facing the threat of displacement, due to their ability to pay for increasing costs of living and rental prices and end up seeing themselves moving from one place to another and actually experiencing multiple forms of dispossession.

Diana Mitlin Thank you, Alex. It was really great also to see how the analysis coming out of the housing domain work in Freetown helped to catalyse moving forward on the housing policy. That was fantastic to see and thanks to you and your colleagues for that. Which city should we move to next?

Ola Uduku Well, I guess I should do Lagos, which I probably have a better insight on, although I think some of the issues there also affect Accra. But Lagos is probably the most populous city that we did look at in terms of housing. Yes it is. And it had multiple issues. There are issues of displacement due to mass evictions. There are also issues around being able to acquire land in the first place because of the complex land ownership issues that exist around Lagos and Accra, very much to do with historic ownership and the fact that it is very difficult for the poor to really get any access to land to build. And then also there’s the issue of Lagos being, as we called it, a hot city – the cost of rentals are incredibly high. So in the research we found out that people actually sublet rooms and bed spaces. So it’s not even the house. You can actually sublet rooms just to be able to work and then go back to your village, which could be anywhere in coastal West Africa. So we had instances of migrants moving to Cotonou at the weekends because it was cheaper for them to live at quote-unquote “home”, but then just come into Lagos for work. In terms of other things too, the grip of the building materials providers was particularly clear there – those large cartels of economic providers of things like cement and so on, and that very much determined the cost of the build or buildings. There’s very little use of sustainable materials and the ways in which cities of the poor neighbourhoods reproduce themselves remains very much the same. They are much more informal settlements and the informality is both because the cost of full building materials are expensive, but also the fact that they’re always under the threat of eviction. So what we were able to look at in terms of our findings was ways in which we might look at building better coalitions with those involved in providing finance for buildings. So there was one example of a community-focused housing estate, where the local community, who were, fair enough, a bit more affluent than the very poor, were able to work together to be able to produce a housing estate that had some sustainability features.

Diana Mitlin Great to have a positive example in a city which sometimes is seen as characterising housing inequalities. It’s always shocking to hear about the practice of hot bedding where people just rent space to sleep. Which city would you next like to move to?

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Maybe Accra, which you started to touch into it. Maybe one of the topics I can start off, but also we’ll pick it up. Ola, I think one of the things that the local research partners really emphasised was this issue of the relationship with local governments. I think in Accra this was particularly relevant. I think it helped a lot to illustrate this topic across the different cities, actually. The prominence of the analysis of the potential that local governments could play in protecting and recognising and fulfilling the right to adequate housing, but at the same time the difficulties that local governments are facing, due to a decentralisation process that doesn’t really create the capabilities for local governments to fulfil this promise and this role. And as a consequence, often local governments are kind of retreating and saying that “well housing is not our business, it’s something for national governments to deal with”. And I think the researchers were coming up with a series of provocations to bring local governments into the conversation by attaching the issue of housing to other very important priorities in the city, such as access to livelihood opportunities and making the important connection between housing and livelihoods – that you need to live in proximity to livelihood opportunities. And, as we know, the local partners in Accra have been for many years involved in struggles to retain markets, informal markets, in close proximity to informal settlements where many of the urban poor live, and actually started to contest the trends of trying to displace livelihood opportunities as a way of displacing people from well-located areas of the city. And in that type of contestation, local governments are extremely important actors to try to contest or to try to revert some of those processes to make sure that housing rights are secured in ways that you can support also the livelihoods of low-income groups in the city.

Diana Mitlin Thank you. A real tension, I think, that you’re illustrating in policy frameworks, with local government being so influential because of zoning, regulation and standards, but at the same time national government being important, obviously with the overall policy framework, but often in terms of financing infrastructure improvements that are so critical to shelter, but also housing programmes themselves. So absolutely an opportunity for collaboration, or if there’s no collaboration, really something of a vacuum. Ola, did you want to add on the experience in Accra?

Ola Uduku I think the only other thing was particularly one of the case studies which was Korle Bu, you have this whole issue about indeed the whole sustainability issue. It’s very close to a very swampy area. So you’re really looking at I would say national issues around being able to think about flooding and so on, which again shows that tension because I could see the local government saying, “well, this is a national problem”, whereas the national government would rather not think about it. So this is to do with the location of some cities, particularly those near the coast, that there is a real problem of coastal erosion and constant flooding and so on. So you have poorer communities in areas that are already under stress in sustainable issues, in sustainable terms and that need to be able to think about the crosscutting issues around climate and sustainability seriously, in terms of how one is able to support those communities and if you’re shifting them, where are you shifting them to? So I think that’s very important too.

Diana Mitlin Yeah, thank you for highlighting climate change, which as we all know is critical to addressing in the context of African cities. Which city shall we go to next?

Alexandre Apsan Frediani I think you just touched on the issue of sustainability and building materials and that brings Lilongwe to the forefront because I think, especially in your visit to Lilongwe, that became such an important topic in terms of the understanding that for low-income groups, access to affordable, resilient building materials is so critical, given the prominence of incremental housing practices in many of the sub-Saharan African cities context. And at the same time, we see the sustainability discourse applying the sustainability lens to this discussion by purely focusing on technologies, of development of new forms of building local materials, as if it’s gonna be the silver bullet around this particular topic. But what we learned in Lilongwe is that actually it’s a much more complex picture than that, that understanding the full spectrum of the value chain of building materials that go to housing in informal settlements, it is very important to find entry points for reform that can make these value chains more robust, that can protect local livelihoods and it can reduce prices of building materials at informal settlements, while at the same time strengthening local entrepreneurship activities that can make the markets, or the context within which the building materials are produced, distributed, more robust and more inclusive overall. But maybe you can say more about that.

Ola Uduku Yeah, about the materials particularly, because in some ways I would say Malawi it seems has been a test bed for some interesting innovations. So they have a really good developed use of local cookers using sustainable ways of cooking so as not to deplete the charcoal cooking methods which are the normal way that people cook in informal settlement. So there has been some development of local materials but they are very much tests. The standard housing estate – and the government has been fairly paternalistic, in the sense there has been significant development of I guess housing for the middle-income or maybe slightly upper lower-income – but this happens when there are elections. So there’s a direct link to the politics and when housing is invested in at national and local government level. So housing has been invested in, but not enough and it seems to stop and start in relation to the times at which political activity is taking place. And now that formal housing does use standard international value chains, which in Malawi’s case is particularly problematic because everything is coming into Lilongwe from outwith Malawi. So you have a lot of imported materials from South Africa, but even as far away as China, and the value chains around that mean that there is very little control in terms of what the costs are, because the costs are being determined by international markets. And there’s been less development of changing those materials for local materials that would obviously reduce the costs and also involve local Malawians more in the process and the production. So the standardised design of the house that most Malawians are looking at, even at a lower cost level in site and services, is still based on building materials that have a value chain that works well outside of the Malawian cost system. It costs as much as international costs are for cement and so on. And these links are, yeah, amazingly international. But the further away you are from the supplier, the more it costs. And in the case of Malawi, it’s had successive suppliers really determining those markets. So it’s something that needs a lot more integration, in terms of some of the good work that has happened in Malawi around some areas like cooking materials and so on, really needs to now move into the ways in which future production of housing and involvement of locals in that housing production takes place. A positive again is that, unlike some of the faster, rapidly urbanising cities, Lilongwe as a city does have the space to develop, but it’s been stunted by these stops and starts, I’d say, in terms of growth and growth plans.

Diana Mitlin I think you’ve really highlighted nicely the work you did on value chains, which I really appreciated in the domain report. I thought that was fantastic. It’s a really good example of how essential it is to have both a political lens and a systems lens if we are to understand the opportunities and the challenges that exist in African cities. And you’ve also highlighted the significance of housing to the politics of urban areas. Housing programmes are incredibly attractive for politicians to illustrate, but in fact in most contexts they proved very hard to deliver at scale, just because it is so expensive. So real tensions in terms of what governments offer to urban residents. I kind of feel that takes us to Addis. Who would like to introduce the work from Addis Ababa?

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Do you want to have a go?

Ola Uduku I think if you start.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Okay. Addis is an incredible case. When we saw that Addis partners wanted to engage with the issue of housing, for us, it was fantastic, right? We have an emblematic housing programme by the national government that have had very mixed reviews in terms of its impact on the ground. And we thought what a great possibility to really unpack that into more detail to see what comes up in terms of issues of inclusion, in terms of issues of sustainability and in terms of the right to adequate housing more generally. And what we started seeing from the report from our partners is the amount of exclusion that the current programme have perpetuated, where the actual end result is housing units that are not affordable for the low-income groups, and there are also housing units that have been delivered unfinished and many of the costs have been passed to those that have been accessing the housing units themselves. So that combination led to many people not being able to afford the repayment rates and therefore moving out from any of these units. So this characterisation of the current initiative, of what is in a way a symbol of possibilities of how national governments can promote housing production actually presents a much more complex picture and one that that puts to the forefront the issue of needing to diversify housing options or the way within which governments can engage with the issue of housing. And therefore we were also given examples of other much more granular small-scale initiatives in Addis where communities have been receiving subsidies themselves to generate incremental housing development, which the partners have identified as much more inspiring in terms of possibilities of other ways of engaging on housing production.

Diana Mitlin Did you want to add on Addis Ababa?

Ola Uduku Just a little. I think it was a really interesting case because to me it was totally different from the West African case. So Addis had come from a much more state-controlled system and it just shows the tensions that if you move from one system to another, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to be all roses at the end. And I think that tension between having a situation where, whatever it was 30, 40 years this would not have been the case and allowing almost market controls to come into the system has shown the tensions that exist, both in terms of what is possible and just the sheer cost again. So the issue again about materials and how you’re able to do that has shown that in the points where communities were able to do that, this collaborative approach to delivering housing seems to have been more successful. But again, back to the fact that the actors at the top need to work with different agents throughout the housing process if we’re going to get the best. So even if there’s a tabula rasa, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t need much more coordination and collaboration to be more successful, which I think Addis in this case was a good example of.

Diana Mitlin And I think we recognise, or anyone who even reads the newspapers recognises, that housing is really difficult for governments to intervene successfully in, in both Europe, North America as well as Africa, Asia, Latin America. So really challenging. At the same time, we also recognise that millions, hundreds of millions of people deliver housing to themselves through this incremental housing process that you’ve described. And whilst it definitely can be improved on, in many cases it does provide adequate quality. So a real paradox there. We have two cities to go, Dar es Salaam and Nairobi. Which one do you think we should introduce next?

Ola Uduku Let’s do Nairobi because think this is a city that I was involved in quite a lot, in terms of working with the researcher there, who did a really good interesting analysis. This was a slightly different analysis in the sense that it was very much to do with looking at land markets and the ways in which housing had developed in, I’d say, more the middle-class and lower-middle-class regions than necessarily the poorer and more informal settlements. But in itself I think it did show again this issue around how the land value determined who was being housed where and the tensions around being able to let that integrate into a wider development of the city as a place where everybody would have equal access to. Because effectively, as might be expected I guess, in a city like Nairobi, the areas that were of the highest value had the highest costs in terms of where people built and obviously the rentals involved with those. Also it was one of the cities that showed more this idea about densification, which is something that is I guess mainly the cities south of Limpopo, South Africa and so on have been more involved in. But cities that we had looked at were really much more I guess less dense and more spread out. Whereas in Nairobi or central Nairobi, the idea about I guess tenements, or we call them apartments and flats here, have become quite the norm, certainly over the last two decades or more. So again, how these flats also have value, rental value, which again relates to where they are and who’s actually being accommodated in them. There was less of a discussion about the materials, but essentially from what we could see, the materials being used again were standardised international materials throughout the world, so very much the use of concrete frames and so on, which in the case of Nairobi not so bad, but you do have issues around building regulations and so on, which again is something that in terms of I think looking forward, making sure that these are adhered to because there have been problems with building collapse across Africa. Nairobi would be a place where this could happen, but so far there hasn’t been evidence that it has done. But it is a city that was working more towards densification, I would say in the central areas, but the research did again, as we might expect, show that the richer were able to get those rentals or rent property closer to where economic activity was and the poorer townships were further away and less serviced, although sometimes still densified. I don’t know. Do you want to add anything?

Alexandre Apsan Frediani I think exactly, I think two points I would just reinforce from what you just said, Ola. One is this issue of the interdependency of the land and property markets and how one relates to another. So development in one type of development sector affects others and that was very interesting to think about these interdependencies of these different housing and land markets. Again, the land aspect came very strong in the Nairobi case. And the second point around the enforcement of building regulations, especially in the context of densification and the role of local government and trying to infuse or promote the creation of those standards and the enforcement of them and the lack of capabilities in the broader environment of the construction sector to be able to really get a handle into those processes, which are generating, as Ola was mentioning, a lot of vulnerabilities and risks for many tenants that are living in the high-rise buildings in very low-income areas of the city.

Diana Mitlin I think that the situation in Nairobi, as picked up by your work, highlights really the importance of rental markets. We’ve seen in the context of Nairobi, the longstanding development now of rental options for lower-middle-income households with pluses and challenges around that. And at the same time, you highlighted the importance of densification. That of course has wider implications. Smaller plots mean it’s cheaper to provide infrastructure. It becomes possible to improve more people’s lives for the same unit of money. And at the same time, if we’re thinking about the challenges of climate, clearly we want to reduce travel around the urban space. We want to avoid urban sprawl. Now, there are many reasons why Nairobi has developed that way. And clearly climate has not been a consideration to date, but it does provide us with examples and illustrations and understandings about what that means. Let’s just introduce our final city of Dar es Salaam, and then we’ll look a little bit more at key policy entry points, policy and programming entry points. Over to you, Alex.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Dar, again it’s a city with a long history of mobilisation around housing issues and where we had researchers that have been embedded within those networks that have been calling for many years for the development of housing policy, involved in housing policy development themselves, as well as supporting grassroots groups in informal settlements, pursuing informal settlement upgrading. So the research was quite focused on a bit of a systematisation of those efforts and some of the debates and the mobilisations, the sticking points that have been prioritised by some of those groups on the ground. One thing I would like to maybe to identify here or to highlight has been this relationship between banks and those living in poor housing in informal settlement conditions and the emphasis in Dar es Salaam to try to engage with mortgage providers to be able to increase their trust, to be able to provide the loans at lower rates for those living in low-income groups, which has been often a huge bottleneck, as we know, with very high interest rates, but many times not even a possibility, where banks would not accept the proposals and the requests from those living in informal settlements. So the efforts of putting that issue into the equation and thinking of collaborative ways that does not add new risks to those living in informal settlements and where the local governments and national government actors come into the conversation for facilitating this dialogue, I think has been very interesting. And on top of that, interesting also initiatives between city authority and private developers in requesting a percentage of certain private development that needs to go into more affordable housing options, at least some sort of openings for some form of public-private partnership that could lead to the development of housing for social interests, which as we know, of course, there is still many challenges, challenges around even the definition of what is affordability, which I know is a very important topic that has been underpinning a lot of our work and international debates. But nevertheless, I think some arrangement that tries to bring government back into a more driving seat as a regulatory or as a promoter for housing options, I think that has been encouraging and interesting to see.

Ola Uduku Yeah. I think absolutely, it did seem to be a more developed, I guess, social housing market than the other cities we’d looked at, in the sense that I think there was more trust that the government was doing things. It was just the cost of doing things and that challenge about being able to indeed guarantee loans and so on that was a problem. So the idea about there being I guess government-provided housing was not totally new, but the way in which coalitions could make it much more available and affordable to everybody was something that I think particularly was highlighted in the Addis case. And I just wonder whether that’s because of all the cities I was just reflecting, it’s the only one that had been usurped by Dodoma, which is now allegedly the capital. So there’s a bit less pressure maybe, but I would say that Dar remains a primate city still in Tanzania. So I don’t think it’s so much that. But I think there’s an agreement that the government does need to be able to provide something, but it’s how that works in reality and what that cost is when it goes down to the informal dwellers and those who are finding it difficult to get into the market. But otherwise the value chain issue is still there, but I’d say less acute than in the case of say Lilongwe, for example.

Diana Mitlin So I think what you’ve highlighted really is the importance of thinking about housing as a parallel track, in the sense of there’s housing, the physical construction, but equally important is finance for housing, housing finance and the impossibility of not having access to credit if you want to develop your housing. To save and build your house incrementally is hugely challenging and really not cost-effective. And then of course the Dar es Salaam example brings up the regularisation programme, the land titling programme, which the government has had a long commitment to, and where we can really see how that plays out over time. So I’d like to, now we’ve introduced all seven of the cities, I think it will be good to turn to some of the insights that you have around what can be done. You’ve already mentioned a diversity of approaches, approaches to policies and approaches to programming. So maybe we should start by your reflections on what do you see as key policy and programming entry points for governments that are keen to do more and coalitions that are also keen to take up the housing challenge?

Ola Uduku Silence. Oh, I think the policy has to be that, okay, there’s the conceptualisation from the United Nations that housing is a right and so on. But it’s how that actually is actualised. So I think there’s been a lot of indeed passing the buck on. So I think national governments do need to be able to think about housing and think about how one actually invests in ways in which housing, particularly for the very poor, is a priority. And I think this is very difficult in today’s situations socioeconomically and globally. But I think what’s come out , insights I would say, is that some of the cities that have done better are cities where the government has at least had a hand or a say in looking at how housing is produced or spread out. So it’s less to do with “we leave it to others to sort out”. So I think there’s that need for at top level, so to speak, government priorities and government focus to have housing as one of the key issues that drives development.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Yeah, I agree Ola. And I think the overall narrative that we heard from the researchers that they were hearing from different policymakers, is that the government cannot do anything about this. It’s such a big problem. It’s too complicated, it’s too complex. Even if we did wish to protect the right to adequate housing, as stated by the United Nations, we just lack the capacities to do it. And therefore, the only thing that is left for us is to support the private sector, to drive foreign direct investment into the sector, to be able to financialise housing, because that is how we’re gonna be able to get investments into housing. But then in reality, what we start seeing is that the results from the research, and of course of many other initiatives, is that we see that the problem is caused by political choices. It’s not necessarily just for the lack of capabilities or there are so many different ways within which government efforts can advance the right to adequate housing, but they just haven’t been prioritised on the ground. We see globally, for example, that public investment into housing on average is less than 0.1% of countries’ GDP. So we are really seeing that the amount of investment, public investment that goes into housing is very low. If we look at the multilateral and bilateral investments into housing, and it is incredible how little there is and how unequal that is. If we’re trying to divide the multilateral and bilateral investments per poor household in Europe and in Africa, European poor households would receive 22 times more than an African household. So what we are seeing is that multilateral and bilateral investments are mostly going to European context, not where there is the most need and where there is the most, a bigger scale of housing deprivations. So we really see that those are a result of political choices, global choices, local choices, national choices. So the quick question for us throughout the work is how to support coalitions that are trying to penetrate those political systems and trying to effect change, so that housing can be prioritised.

Ola Uduku And from a less marketised point of view. So effectively, as you’re saying, the political choices are around or the politico-economic choices are around a much capitalised system where certain units are the things we’re looking at. Whereas what we were finding in, if you like, the good cases, are coalitions work together to look at areas of incremental housing and ways in which there are coalitions and collaborations around providing more than the unit and more to do with developing groups of whatever it is, housing with incremental possibilities and so on. So the models that are being used at, I would say, national level are very skewed towards, I guess for lack of a better word, neoliberal ideas about property provision.

Diana Mitlin I think the two things you’ve really highlighted for me is one is the significance of incremental development. I think that governments sometimes resist that because they don’t see it as addressing their need to be politically popular. It’s not seen as sufficiently modern, modern modernism. And it’s their concerns about quality and also sometimes about the additional cost of building incrementally, although we know that it’s the way to go if you want to have scale, even if it costs a little bit more in terms of construction because you may have to redo some things. It’s much cheaper in terms of housing finance because you don’t have large loans with interest charges for long periods. So the benefits of incrementalism and the sense among governments that it’s not politically popular, and at the same time the challenges of going to scale with investments. So, Alex, you highlighted the reluctance of multilateral and bilateral agencies to be involved. Of course, historically they have been involved, but generally they felt that their funding was used for relatively expensive developments, which only addressed a very small proportion of those in need and didn’t generate the income required to produce more housing. So they were a little bit stuck. How do we go now? There were sites and services programmes, of course, but I think they may be not popular because of this association with incrementalism. I mean, does that represent the picture that you observed?

Ola Uduku I think to an extent. So I think also back to the politics, it’s the look as well. I mean, you’re in power for four, three, four, five years. And it’s difficult in terms of incremental investment and so on to be able to say at the end of your term, “this is what I’ve done”. So I guess, yeah, site and services has had, if you like, a bad look probably since the 70s or whenever it started. And it’s that I think conceptualising longer term. So we’re back to this thing about, you have a policy that is only as long as when the government’s in place and there’s always that looking at what has been delivered. And, yes, it looks better if you’ve got this housing estate, even if really we know that it’s not making that much of a difference. It costs a lot. And indeed, particularly again the citation will be places like Lagos and so on, where there was a significant amount of World Bank housing, but really it got displaced. So the low- income housing was bought by middle-income people who then sublet it out. So the idea that it would trickle down never ever happened. So, you know, you’ve got that happening and so I think it’s both the costs and then I think the reluctance of markets to indeed underwrite loans to people who they feel probably might not pay back the loan and so on. So they’d rather I think keep safe, which is I would say again the kind of westernised idea about indeed the housing estate and certain people who they feel they can guarantee the loans to or who actually just buy outright or whatever. So it’s not really going to where the need is. Which is interesting because I think when we look at Latin America, there’s a different dynamic going on. So we’ve still got lots of informal settlements and very little recognition of incremental design and upgrading and so on being something that is supported, which it should be.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani I agree. And I look at this picture that became I think increasingly more complex and interesting as we moved forward. Because of the nature of the African Cities Research Consortium research that was putting at the forefront the political settlement question, where is power and how can power be leveraged to bring about progressive change? And thinking that through the formation of urban coalitions of advancing that, we worked closely with our partners to try to think what are those cracks or what are those topics, what are those let’s say what we call friendly enemies? You know, those things that we agree are important. We might have very different ideas of what they mean, but we agree they’re important for us to talk about. And through our research, I think we identified maybe three friendly enemies around the housing question. One of them being the issue of governance, coordination among different public sectors, and putting at the forefront the role of local governments. Definitely a friendly enemy that everybody wanted to talk about. Local governments because they believe they need more capacities, more capabilities to deal with this issue, national governments because they are looking for ways of localising and delegating things to be done, and local actors because local governments are the most immediate place of representation, that they can actually have very direct mechanisms of advocating for that. Second topic was around the rental aspect, the rental question being at the forefront.

Diana Mitlin So I’m keen that we explore rental, but just before we leave governance, which city do you think you observed a coalition that was able to engage local government with the success? Did you observe that in any of the seven cities?

Ola Uduku I would have thought probably Dar, to an extent. I felt that there was something there, there was a structure.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Yeah, I think you see the context of Freetown is a difficult one to say it was a success engagement of local government. It was a complex engagement of multi-level governance, for sure, and the tensions between local, regional and national government has played a big role in the possibilities to advance the housing question. Nevertheless, because of those tensions, there were very interesting initiatives. The Transform Freetown agenda has been able to put at least discursively the point of upgrading into the context of Freetown, with some punctual experiences of upgrading and the mayor of Freetown now in her second mandate, has been very much bringing the question of informality of housing as a very important agenda for the development of Freetown. At least qualifying the future of Freetown from that perspective has been in a more discursive level very important to legitimate the fact that informal settlements are residents of Freetown and that they need to engage into policy options that work for them. Not to say that that has been all great outcomes, but I think that has been an important advancement. I think Accra has been another place, probably Diana, you would know more in detail the realities in Accra, but it seems that there was a lot of engagement with alliances around coalitions to affect national local governments and the kind of decentralisation efforts in Ghana. What do you think?

Diana Mitlin So I think it goes back to a theme we’ve recognised as important. So local government recognises that they need to address the needs, if they can, of people living in informal settlements. That is absolutely, I would agree with you, there’s a lot of pressure for them to do that. Groups are organised, both professional groups and also grassroots groups. So I think that’s in place. The emphasis is probably more on discussing issues around secure tenure and access to basic services than it is on providing the construction element. So I think that it’s a little bit of a halfway house. All three cities, I think, are good examples of where you have people who are willing to apply themselves to the problem. I think something one of you mentioned earlier about like you have to focus on it. You may not have the answers, but you can’t say! It’s too difficult, we need to ignore this”. You need to look at learning, you need to look at successes, you need to apply yourself. And if governments local and national apply themselves, I think they can begin to make progress.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani I think just one example of some developments, just to highlight the possibilities, has been the climate action plans in the case of Sierra Leone and the climate agenda that I think in the case of Sierra Leone has been so far tactically used productively to recognise the needs of informal settlement dwellers to have improvements to become more resilient to climate shocks and stresses. And I think that’s not everywhere, as we know, that sometimes climate action plans can lead to displacements on the name of risk and that is a true risk. But in places it has opened up possibilities to recognise I think, as you’re mentioning, at least the need to bring improvements to those localities.

Diana Mitlin Let’s go to the rental issue because I think for me that was also a very important contribution that comes out of your domain paper. This strong emphasis on the need to act to improve rental markets.

Ola Uduku Yeah. Well, I think again, the whole idea of rent controls was something that came across, particularly I think across all West African cities. I’m not sure about Sierra Leone, but certainly Accra and Lagos. And in a way that did have government interest, although the laws and controls were historic. So there was an acknowledgement that rentals were an issue, but then again it was one of these too difficult or too political to touch. So the idea that you would have to pay two months’, two years’ rent in advance would be fine if you’re upper middle class or middle class and you have a job where you can do that. But the reality was much more frightening on the ground and it was so granular, this whole thing about a bed that you could rent a bed, I think that shocked a lot of us. So even if we were aware that rentals were an issue, we hadn’t realised how hot an issue it was in certain areas. Because literally you cannot in certain parts of urban Accra and so on find anywhere unless you’re able to engage in these informal practices around renting per square metre, literally as it comes to it. But this was something that there was a framework for, so it was a case of beginning to speak to or finding out whether the coalitions were able to influence – I think it is at national level – these issues around rent control, but this could be something that working with local governments one could have a better feel for. And the examples I would give is, certainly in areas like education – often education becomes tied to your paying your equivalent of council tax. So you want your kid to go to the basic primary school, you need to produce your council tax certificate. So there’s something around tying it to things that people would want to do, and therefore being able to get some kind of buy-in towards getting local governments more involved in having some of the finances required and organisational structures to deliver or be more involved in being able to administer issues around rent control, which at the moment is a kind of law at national level but doesn’t trickle down.

Diana Mitlin So if I’m right, the issue about rent control is primarily about whether you have to make these advanced payments. So a year’s rent up front, two years’ rent up front, which I think even upper-middle-income households would be potentially a bit shocked at having to mobilise that much capital.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Yeah, I think it’s that, it’s also to do with how much you can increase your rent prices in the end of your contract.

Ola Uduku Well there’s that too, yes. And at the end of it, it just goes up.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani When you have a contract and when this increase doesn’t just come randomly in the end of the month because you are installing a new tap, or because you as a structure owner want to make improvements to your housing qualities. Underpinning something came up very interesting for me in this project was because of the political settlement angle, some of the discussions that we were having brought up the question, why the rental issue or tenants’ rights issues haven’t been higher in the political agenda. Yes, as you say Diana, it cuts across people of different classes. It would be a natural point of discussion. There are provisions in many countries of tenants committee to deal with tenant disputes that are connecting with the judicial systems but trying to deal with it in more civil spaces and so there are possibilities in terms of frameworks in different countries of arrangements that are there but never put into practice, never operationalised. So why, what is stopping for coalitions to be built around that? And one of the things that came up is that rental issues is mostly an urban concern. That is a concern of the urban citizenry. And as many of politicians’ voters traditionally has been in rural areas, that rental issues might not have been a hot topic to get votes.

Ola Uduku It’s not a vote buyer.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Yeah. But given the transitions that we are seeing, of urban transition, that inevitably the rental issue will and is becoming a political issue, for votes, for election processes. And therefore we see this increasing visibility and suddenly, the depth of it, the scale of the issue around rents in cities that I think it’s really opening up a whole bag of worms and how to deal with it. I think it’s something that politicians will have to start grappling and coming up with concrete options because they also put at the core is a question of how much can a state intervene in the housing markets. And that has been a question dominating housing policy in every context that we’re working on. And here the issue of rent controls, to what extent putting rent controls would take away the stimulations from the market, would discourage it from investments. So there’s a lot of assumptions and sometimes myths associated to the relationship between state and rental markets that I think will be at the forefront of many conversations in the policy sphere.

Ola Uduku Yeah.

Diana Mitlin Interesting. I think definitely one to watch. And also I think as tenants unions begin to form, we can also anticipate some things changing. I’m keen because of time to move on to I know one of the third entry points that you’re keen to highlight, on the building materials and construction sector.

Ola Uduku Well, yes, I think again, now we’re into the architecture of building. The building market, I would say in sub-Saharan Africa is still in the grip of, I guess, whatever, 1980s, 90s construction across the world. The dependency remains around materials such as cement, imported things like aluminium for windows and so on, which in today’s discussion around sustainability and materials really just cannot continue. But I think the larger providers, so this is the issue about actors and market actors such as Dangote in Nigeria, who apparently supplies not just West Africa but his reaches in terms of his cement goes all the way to South Africa. So you’ve got large cartels of financiers who are invested in the way in which construction takes place now. So there’s an issue about working with such suppliers to think about what are more sustainable materials anyway. But then at a more granular level, we do know that there are construction techniques that exist, particularly if we’re talking about slightly more informal settlements, which maybe last ten years and then you redesign them and so on, because we’re talking about incrementality anyway. So you’ve got the materials that are I would say still stuck in the high period or whatever of the 80s and 90s and building regulations that reinforce that. So there’s no real incentive to get large providers of materials, or indeed large providers of housing and so on, to change the way in which construction gets built. And when you look at those value chains, however, it’s clear that it’s not sustainable in the long run. So there’s a need to really look at what local materials might look like and indeed how these supply chains, at least even if the large suppliers therefore all decide to move to, for example, bamboo, there’s enough for local suppliers to get involved in the markets and the chains. So it’s a many-layered issue in terms of both the way regulation happens in the building construction industries, and then also the kind of materials that are being supplied. And I guess conceptually as well, what people think about. So we’re back to this issue about incremental not being wonderful, people are looking at that house and garden or whatever it is. So there are a series of things which I would say perpetuate the market as it exists, which if we’re looking at both sustainability and ways in which – well, circularity – the ways in which the building industry is much more attentive to being sustainable and involving those different actors, particularly at a lower level, it needs to start thinking about restructuring and reframing itself.

Diana Mitlin So a real example of how urban reform has to engage with the materiality of cities, this very physical element, whilst at the same time navigating a route through the political economy of urban development. Did you see any particular good examples of efforts to intervene in the supply chain? Or do you think this is still work to come?

Ola Uduku I mean again I think the housing estate we talked about in the podcast in Lagos, where it was a small communal housing estate. It was more middle class, I have to say than informal. But, as a group, they were able to look at their materials. I don’t think they actually deviated altogether from cement and so on, but they looked at how their housing could be designed to be more environmentally friendly, they could use cross-ventilation, less emphasis on expensive electricity, they had solar panels and they’re able to work together and therefore reduce the prices, in terms of what it would have been for them to build individually. So they’re working in a collective and collaborative manner and they’re also able to talk to local government to make sure that I think something around the way in which the power networks and so on allowed them to have their electricity off-grid and that kind of thing. Because the other bit is infrastructure. There’s a disincentive in a lot of countries to actually – well, a bit like here too. They’d rather people were on the grid, whereas it’s cheaper not to be, and so on. So those were the kind of examples, but very little in terms of informal housing using, I would say, different materials and techniques. More tests, examples – I think in Addis, the architecture school there has looked at building materials and new ways of construction, but it’s not gone out of the tests and into the community, unlike the cookers in Malawi. So it’s possible with the right …

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Yeah, in my view I think that the key element here is around increasing the bargaining power of those groups that have been absorbing all the risks, all the burdens of this very unjust value chain of building materials, as Ola was just describing, where the corrugated iron sheets are being used for housing and where it’s worse in terms of responding to climate changes and heat and rain, in some cases even asbestos being used still and promoted in some certain countries around the use of it and which directly expose local residents, but they say, it only expose if it breaks. But the roads they are not there, when you’re transporting building materials from one place, it breaks and exposes those that are the end user of the material and therefore so there is a deep injustice. There is a great political economy that is working at the global scale, which we have very little knowhow about, in terms of those different flows of those building materials from global, from international processes, how they are arriving in informal settlements, what are the regulations, the incentives that are actually playing around here. A lot of national interests at stake, due to relationship between countries around reducing tariffs around certain building materials over others, and at the same time, global conversations around the decarbonisation of the construction and building industry, not touching at all the issue of informality. They are focusing mostly in the formal housing construction processes at best, when they are not just focusing on northern countries’ construction processes. So for this topic to really address what is at the bottom of it, it really requires a more profound reframing of the conversation that puts those issues at the forefront. And I would just say that what for me has been encouraging has been the formation of coalitions, of collectives around construction materials, helping for those groups to move up in the value chain and for them to gain more bargaining power. And we’ve seen I think in Dar the proposal around formation of local enterprise through collective processes. And when we see this idea of thinking, of engaging with the construction sector as a political act, as a way of democratising decisionmaking, not only within the construction sector, but within the wider politics of the city, that combination between politics and building materials is something that in the 70s was very usual in Latin America. But I think that is something that has moved out of the picture. And I think it’s a very interesting space to revive and to think for more action.

Ola Uduku More global interests.

Ola Uduku I think that we see most of the efforts of organised groups of residents being around tenure security and access to basic services. So they tend to be takers in the market for building materials. But I understand where you’re coming from, and I do think that a more considered engagement may offer some benefits. I’ve also seen numerous efforts to create more environmentally friendly blocks, building materials, where you reduce the amount of cement. So there’s been a wealth of innovation around this, but I think one of the challenges is that it is still more expensive than fired earth blocks. So for me, there’s a real need for the professional interventions to really consider in a much more realistic way the very low incomes of the people who want to buy their products. So it’s again, it’s a good example of where you need a coalition that involves organised residents, but at the same time informed professionals to really create that cross-class alliance that can tackle the vested interests and move forward new ideas.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani I agree. And part of that has not to criminalise or to blame those living in informal settlements for the use of some more carbon-intensive materials. So I think that’s a very important conversation that we don’t then start with

Ola Uduku From that point of view, I don’t actually think they are. I mean, if anything, it’s the fact that a house is a house and people see the cement block as the gold standard. So it’s more the fact that if they’re using it, or rather when they’re using it, it’s costing them more. But back to this thing about regulation, the building regs will still say a cement block is the standard. If you’re using anything else, they’ll tell you what’s the compression weight and so on. So there’s that need to actually at a more national level, as Diana was saying, to have building regulations and those involved in regulating building to be much more open to what sustainability means, which I don’t think has actually entered the conversation at all.

Diana Mitlin So I’m really conscious about time. I think we probably should be thinking about wrapping this up, but I’m also really keen to have final thoughts from both of you about how your work suggests that you can take issues around housing justice forward. Who would like to go first?

Ola Uduku Well I think again, I think the regional coalitions. I think that certainly West Africa as a bloc does do some things reasonably well, as in ECOWAS and indeed CODESRIA, they do have some regional groups that work across countries. And I think in terms of issues, such as back to the building materials and even rent control, the issues are similar. And I think there’s a willingness among some intellectuals to have that discussion, but it’s to get them out of the ivory towers and really get them more involved in working with governments. But I would give the example about the days of air conditioning and whatever it was, refrigerators. Basically a protocol came from the IPCC and literally in my time, I think I was a teenager at the time or whatever, literally in a year, most fridges just changed. They didn’t have the CFCs or whatever it was.

Ola Uduku CFCs.

Ola Uduku So I think the issue is that it shouldn’t be top down. It’s something about being able to have some ideas around climate, which we know is coming to get us, so to speak, and we can see it in terms of erosion and so on. So I think being able to have that as something that really drives some of the issues around buildings, and particularly therefore housing, is something that should be able to push this agenda around looking at building materials at a regional level, if not at a national level. And we’re seeing a bit of it actually with solar, with our friends the Chinese. The cost of solar panels comes down and suddenly people start talking about it. So that’s the whole economics. It becomes something that people can begin to, so until we can look at the cost of a brick, probably that is more sustainably produced, it’s still a bit theoretical. So it’s having that critical mass and really being able to I guess spread that through, but ideally from a middle-up, if not ground-up, point of view. Because I think it’s unfair to ask informal sector dwellers to say, well, we have really cheap bricks, please can we … it’s gotta be both ways, I would say.

Diana Mitlin Thank you, Alex.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Yeah, no, I agree. Ola I think that the issue of building materials you highlight has so much potential to really address the global-to-local, local-to-global dynamics that are embedded in the struggles for housing justice. And I think that’s a very important entry point, which we often don’t necessarily put so much emphasis on when we talk about financialisation of housing. We have big those big globalisation processes, we end up focusing on other dynamics, and I think this is something of a bit of a blind spot in many of the global engagements, advocacy work around advancing the right to adequate housing, which is so important for those that are in incremental housing practices specifically, you know. But I would just like to end maybe for my part, how amazing it has been to work with this incredible group of researchers in those different cities. And it really deepened or opened up my eyes about the possibilities that when you have researchers that are engaging with their local context, collaborating with civil society groups, many of them also permeating policy processes themselves, political actors themselves in their own context. And we basically helped in supporting exchanges, we’re very open in our methodology and trying to facilitate a process of research that allowed those topics to come to the forefront. And the networks and the collaboration, the solidarity among them was so powerful. And the possibilities that they can bring to generate not only knowledge sharing, learning across places around housing, which I think it’s so important and often not something we do so much about, I think the possibilities it opens to influence global processes. I think this is something I’m a bit frustrated, and I think we’re both trying to work on that, how do we open up more possibilities to optimise the opportunities for this type of collaboration, knowledge production processes to engage with more global processes of policymaking? I know that within UN Habitat there has been a lot of interest to learn from the findings that we generated. But beyond a report, beyond just sharing a document with key policy people that are involved in policy processes, what else could we facilitate to continue supporting a network of academics engaging on this topic, so that they can continue and enhance their ability to influence some of those decision-making processes?

Diana Mitlin So thank you. Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Ola. Hopefully this has drawn more people into understanding the issues around housing and encouraged them to look at your report. Thank you so much.

Alexandre Apsan Frediani Thank you.

Ola Uduku Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Outro You have been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Intro Welcome to African Cities podcast.

Ismail Ibraheem Welcome to Lagos ACRC. This morning we’ll be talking about food production logistics in Lagos. Today is bright and sunny in Lagos. And I’ve got incredible people right here with me that will be talking about the food production as well as logistics in Lagos. And I’m going to ask them to introduce themselves. But starting for me, my name is Ismail Ibraheem. I used to be the Lagos uptake lead, but now the uptake lead of ACRC. Yeah. Taibat would you like to let us know who you are?

Taibat Lawanson Hello everyone. My name is Taibat Lawanson. I’m Professor of Urban Management and Governance at the University of Lagos and the city lead for Lagos. It’s a pleasure to be here today.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you so much. Folasade.

Folasade Adeboyejo And thank you so much. Good morning everyone. My name is Folasade Adeboyejo. I am a postgraduate researcher at the University of Plymouth, and I’ve been working with ACRC as a researcher for the waste management city of systems.

Ismail Ibraheem Over to Deji.

Deji Akinpelu My name is Deji Akinpelu, founder of Rethinking Cities. I’m part of the ACRC team in Lagos – waste management studies and security. Thank you for having me.

Ismail Ibraheem Okay. Thank you very much, everyone. Food security, I think is a major challenge, not only in Lagos, food security globally. I will start with Taibat. Can you just take us through what is it that you’ve been doing regarding food production and logistics in Lagos, in terms of research. What are the key indicators? What are the opportunities? What is coming out of your research?

Taibat Lawanson Thank you very much. Food is very important and we learnt a lot, looking at the food ecosystem of Lagos. We discovered that close to 80% of the food that is consumed in this city is brought from outside. And that is understandable, given the very high hilltop nature of the city and the high building footprint of the city, and the fact that a lot of the agricultural land uses have been converted to residential over the years. But, that being said, a lot of food is produced on the outskirts of Lagos and around the periurban axis in the [inaudible] and the Badagry axis. We have some food production and even with the Imota rice mill, we have the government thinking on the larger scale and looking even at the export market. And the Lagos State government developed a five-year agricultural roadmap in April 2021, with a target to start earning commercially from agricultural activities. And we’ve seen significant investment into that. But Lagos is still food poor. We find that getting food to the average table still goes through a lot of challenges. A lot of the food that comes into the city comes in from other states of the federation. And unfortunately, because of some of the logistic dilemmas, we find that there’s a high level of food waste. We also see that the access to food is getting increasingly constricted, primarily because of some of the insurgency issues and the violence that’s happening in the North East and the North Central areas. And so a lot of the food coming into Lagos is becoming increasingly expensive. And we have an upsurge in food benevolence activities, primarily by religious organisations and by philanthropic organisations, because many people, including those at the lowest rungs of the ladder and the homeless, are now in desperate need of food for survival. We also found that the quality of food ebbs, primarily because of the long logistics, that process for bringing food into the city and essentially the fact that a lot of the logistics is still largely informal. And so some of the fresh produce that comes into the city comes into the city spoilt because of the pressure of the long travel. And within the city, we found a very nuanced ethnic underplay with regards to market governance. Certain markets are dominated by certain ethnic groups. Certain market sectors are also dominated by certain ethnic groups, and this causes tensions in some of the markets. This causes tensions with regards to during the political season, for example. It also causes tensions when it comes to larger problems. For example, there have been skirmishes in the Mile 12 market between people from the north who are carrying food, who are selling food, and with local area boys who tend to have an ethnic narrative around sometimes the exploitation that happens in the street governance level. And this sometimes impacts on the cost of food or even the availability. And we see that a lot of these issues have spiked since 2020 during the Covid lockdowns, primarily because food is existential. And the overarching economic issues that accompanied that crisis makes it quite difficult for people on the lower rungs of the ladder to balance out. And so we’ve seen this, we’ve seen the challenges, but more importantly, we see that there is significant food waste. And I think there are opportunities there. And, there is a need for us to look a bit closer at what exactly is happening in the food ecosystem and how we can leverage on that, in order to, one, improve, enhance food security for citizens, and, number two, leverage for benefits that may be available. Back to you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you so much Taibat for those insights in terms of opportunities, that we have in Lagos. I will come back to you. Let me go to Folasade now. Lagos is a city of more than 25 million, producing an incredible amount of waste. So looking into the Lagos State waste management sector, what are the gaps in the food waste subsector, Folasade?

Folasade Adeboyejo Okay, thank you very much. So looking at Lagos State as a state on its own, with respect to food to waste, we identified that 50% of the waste generated at the household level, it’s actually organic waste, more like food waste, while the other 50%, it’s plastic waste or recyclable waste. We realised that should we compare actions going on in the states with respect to food waste and plastic waste, a lot of actions have been taken with the opportunity to reduce plastic waste and its menace in the city, but this cannot be said for food waste. So this is one of the things we realised and food waste has its own value chain, which could be developed. Unfortunately, this is not as developed as we see for plastic electronic waste, as well as fabric waste. Today in Lagos and in Nigeria as a whole, the electronic waste system has a PRO which is organising the recovery of this waste to be reused and this can be said for plastic as well. And efforts are also going for fabric waste. But for the food waste, nothing is seen. So this is actually a big gap. And the study also indicates that the reason why this might be so could be because, economically, what are the economic potentials of food waste and products generated from this? In reality, in other spheres, food waste has been successfully converted into fertiliser and converted into energy sources. Little actions are being done in the state, but not at the scale of either governance or involvement of businesses in the plastic waste stream. So not being economically viable at the moment, seems to be the major challenge. Also the states had made efforts into recovery of food waste, most especially from markets. And with that past they ventured into a fertiliser producing company called Healthcare Nigeria Limited. Our discussions with stakeholders from the Lagos State Waste Management Agency indicated that yeah, so for this system, for this company, they were collecting food waste primarily from the food market specifically now Mile 12. And for this they collect the waste by themselves without the state involvement, but because of the production and the inability to be able to market the fertiliser produced from the system, they’ve been underproducing and the market value is not really, really existing at the moment. So economically there is a huge gap in that sphere, and there remain challenges. Food waste: the major sources of food waste we identified are households, markets, and this is where it tallies with the food distribution system, the market, as well as businesses. So efforts from the household is a challenge because as at today waste separation is still highly inefficient in the states, so even when individual households decide to separate their waste so you can have your stream of food waste, the points where this is to be recovered by the recovery organisations, which are they are PSP, they still commingle. So there is not a distinct stream where food waste could be collected at the household. And this is also applicable should we move to the market level. Because as a government, what has been provided right there in most of the markets are large [inaudible] receptacles, which are more like [inaudible] bins. And this receptacle is also a co-mingling of different types of waste. So the sourcing of the waste stream that could be used for all that purpose is also difficult. So the gaps we identified can be summarised to be economically not being viable with respect to products from the streams, as well as environmentally, with respect to inability to aggregate the food waste on its own, which the ends to waste separation. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you Folasade. I’ll go back to Taibat. Lagos seems to be edging towards being a more planned city. So it seems from the Lagos State Strategic Development Plans and [inaudible] opportunities for climate action in respect of managing food waste as disclosed by Folasade. From your own insights into the Lagos State Development Plan, what are the opportunities? What are the ways the government’s approach is relevant for this? What are the strategies also put in place, but just as the gaps were identified in food logistics, especially in Lagos?

Taibat Lawanson Currently, what we find is that the food markets are governed through the Market Women and Men’s Association, which is the Iyalojas and the Babalojas association. And it’s quite informal. It’s quite organic, but they also have very strong political influences and impacts. And so it’s a very grounded type of governance regime as to who sells what and where. And so the food distribution logic is still largely informal. What we see is that people who are going into agriculture are also opening up a fresh market, but they are mainly targeting the supermarkets and the hotels, and these are those who are going into agriculture in the Epe, Ikorodu and Badagry axis and packaging for the mainstream or for the formal sector markets, as it were. And what we see is that the Lagos Economic Development Plan has a plan for agriculture, but that plan is more targeted at commercial farming. We know that Lagos State has bought land in other states of the federation to go into agriculture, but there’s not a lot of information in the public domain about the opportunities that are inherent and what exactly is going on. We see that the body language of the state government is to amplify agricultural production. Recently in the last six months, the governor opened up a farmer’s market. We have the Kota rice mill that started with the Lake rice about nine to ten years ago, where there was a collaboration between Lagos State and Kebbi State to produce rice. And then the rice that was produced was then meant to be transported to Lagos, to be processed and bagged, and then some sold within the country and others sold externally. We understand that that rice mill is meant to be the largest in West Africa, but it is still slow in taking off, perhaps because of some of the economic challenges that have occurred globally over the last few years. But there’s not a lot of information in the public domain regarding the larger- scale, higher-level agricultural aspirations and ambitions of the state. When we look at everyday food practices since Covid, we see a high level of backyard farming starting. We see a high level of urban agriculture, going on with many IDPs who are coming into the city with agricultural skills now taking advantage of vacant plots by the roadside, walkways and things like that, to plant food items and things like that. We also have a lot of streetside horticultural participants who sell flowers by the roadside and all of that. All these small pockets, cumulatively, they contribute to making the city cooler, I will say. But it’s not happening in a structured or strong enough fashion that we can measure the impact, whether in the short term or in the longer term. But we know that it’s happening and we know that it’s a good thing that it’s happening, and perhaps we just need some more strengthening of that kind of emerging green practice across the city, at the household and neighbourhood scale. And then, for the longer term, high-level interventions to also target scaling up those kinds of endeavours and ensuring that the ratio of food that is produced in situ and food that is imported becomes a bit less skewed in favour of food that is being brought in from elsewhere. Back to you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you Taibat, that is quite insightful. I will go to Deji now. Recently there have been some policy pronouncements by Lagos State government around plastic waste management. Do you see food waste management rise to the level of plastic waste management governance and the sort of what we have recently in Lagos?

Deji Akinpelu Okay. Yeah, I’m trying to make a comparison between the advocacy of policies towards plastic waste management compared to food waste management. It’s pretty much on the low for food waste. We don’t have a very active policy or practice towards the management of food waste. Like Folasade said, I think there’s some food waste facility that have been provided in Mile 12. Attention is not paid to that facility, for instance, because of the general global campaign that has been given to plastic waste, I see less attention has been paid to food waste in cities like Lagos. Whereas, this is where also we need to pay a good amount of attention, considering the amount of this waste that is generated from households and also the potentials that it possesses for making the city more liveable for us. So the environmental impacts that you really get a whole lot of focus on from plastic waste, the same environmental impact we also have from food waste when we get to the landfills, they emit methane, which are potential greenhouse gases that contribute to climate change. The health concerns about rotting food and pests, et cetera, all these environmental impacts, health concern, economic implications are some of the things that we need to bring to the fore. So there’s a whole lot of opportunity that we need to begin to explore. Some of these Prof had also spoken to – things like, ideas such as community farming, urban farming in cities within communities, whereby people begin to use their spaces. And jokingly someone said online yesterday that due to the rising food costs, people should get ready to start removing their interlockings in their houses and start planting their own food. Concepts around From Farm to Table within the communities are things that we need to begin to explore. And government agencies has complained about the fact that things are happening, but they are not being measured. But what can be the role of a government agency, for instance, like LASBCA? How can they be coming to the concepts of community farming, community gardening, in collaboration with the Ministry of Agriculture? Because we have quite a number of open public spaces around communities that can be ceded to communities where they can engage in urban farming activities and be able to have the concept of From Farm to Table. Waste to energy is also part of what we need to consider – the ability for people to turn their food waste into gas, for instance, even within your home, the same food waste that you generated within your home, you can actually convert it to gas right there inside your house, or you can actually take it to a community composting station, where fertilisers can be generated, energy can be generated. So we are just missing out. There’s a whole lot that food waste can offer. I think the city’s just so much concentrated in terms of, “oh, let us make food available, let us make food available to the people”, or we are not thinking about the waste that comes after the food has been made available, because that also has – as much as it is important to provide food for people to eat – it is also very important that you safeguard the food after the waste has been generated to preserve the lives of the people who live in the city. And, by extension, policies, campaigns and public education should be extended to organisations that are into food production, selling food, to be more deliberate about food waste management and utilising its opportunities. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you, Deji. If I can just stay on that topic for a moment, I think perhaps the advocacy around plastic waste management was led by a kind of reform coalition, very strong reform coalition around that issue, as well as some advocacy organisations. What are the opportunities for transformational reform coalitions relating to food production and ecowaste management at household and city scale in Lagos?

Deji Akinpelu Yeah, like you rightly said, reform coalitions have been set up, which I consider pretty much a very global massive move that has been championed. So food waste management is an advocacy gap that probably I see, that we don’t have a lot of, where we have advocacy on sustainable agricultural practices, urban farming, yes, we have all of that on a growing scale. But in terms of advocacy, struggling, for instance, in the plastic industry and the plastic waste campaign, you have the extended producer responsibility, which compels the producers of plastic to be responsible for the end-of-life of their plastic. You don’t have any of such regulation in terms of food waste to those who generate food waste. For instance, if you manage a certain number of chains of eatery, a policy or advocacy should be directed to how the food waste from that eatery is managed. So as long as you have about 400 or 100 outlets or 50 outlets in the city of Lagos, there should be advocacy and coalitions should be able to come together to say, “hey, such organisations that have this amount of outlets”, policies should be designed in such a way that food waste from those areas should be directed to composting stations. They should be responsible enough to direct those food waste to composting stations. And from composting stations, all the outputs that can be generated from food waste can be utilised. That will be biogas, be it energy, be it fertiliser, et cetera, et cetera. So there is that gap and there is that opportunity for reform coalitions, there is also the opportunity to embark on campaigns, to enlighten people on how they can utilise food waste. We can definitely get to the same point where we see people who are being rewarded for their plastic, the same way, I believe we can get to the point where we can reward people for their food waste, because it’s going to be eventually, going to be converted. So there’s a need for a whole lot of educate, public enlightenment and also encouraging start-ups in the area of food waste management. So I don’t know of any start-up in the food waste management space. But start-ups in the food waste management space need to be incubated and accelerated, whereby these start-ups go from household to household, they can pick up people’s food waste and convert it to every necessary material that it could be converted to. So, in terms of reform coalitions, there are lots and lots and lots of opportunities that we need to take advantage of. And interestingly, this particular waste is the largest among what is generated from household to household. So we need to pay a lot of attention to this. What can come out of it is very much needed by the people, be it biogas, be it fertiliser. Like Folasade said, it’s about also creating the market. The market for biogas, I feel so strongly that it is there, considering the cost of gas presently that we are experiencing. So these recyclables or recycling food waste into biogas can pretty much help people to get gas on a cheaper level. So yeah, the opportunities for reform coalition to pursue is there and I think we from the civil society, we need to do pretty much more in the area of food waste management. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you Deji. Reform coalitions are actually central to the theory of change of ACRC. They are vehicles for transformation of urban cities, but as an element of politics in the formation of reform coalition. And I’m glad that some of this was addressed in the research by Taibat. Could you Taibat, could you please disclose, for instance, outputs of food distribution in your research, as it relates to politics, market politics, food politics and politics of waste management?

Taibat Lawanson Yeah. So we find that the food distribution politics is quite nuanced, and there’s a very strong ethnic issue there. We also find that with regards to some produce, there’s also a gender bias. For example, in the cattle market now, we see that those who are in the cattle markets are predominantly men, and they are also predominantly from the north, while those who serve as butchers are predominantly men or predominantly men from the southwest. And while those who sell beef products are men, while those who sell the offals and other parts of the cow are women. And we find that there are very clear distinctions around the lines and the hierarchies of who gets in and who goes out. We also see that within the ecosystem, there are very strong lines, and it’s very rare for you to find somebody moving from being a butcher to being a cow seller or being somebody who is selling offals to somebody who is selling direct beef and all of that. There are very clear cultural lines involved. There are very clear gender-specific rules involved. But we also see clashes, for example, when there was an issue in northern Nigeria, when there was an ethnic upset in northern Nigeria, the foods that was coming to Lagos was stopped at the Jebba border, and for days they could not move across that bridge. And what that meant was that in subsequent weeks, Lagos had to struggle with meeting the needs of their population. And what that triggered at the time was a series of agricultural training. A lot of the politically exposed people, the politicians, elected officials, started this wave of agricultural training for their people and all of that. But it’s short-lived because shortly after that crisis was resolved, we are back to the status quo. And so, while there is this threat that if there’s a crisis, Lagos may be cut off from the food supply, not much is being done, in a very obvious, strong, intentional way to ensure that the capacity of the state to produce more of the food that she needs is being enhanced. That’s one. The second one is also to scale up the kinds of opportunities that are within this agricultural market. It’s somewhat difficult. And then, on a lighter note, Nigerians are very meat-eating, meat-loving people. And so we definitely will not be doing well on the scale of climate-conscious consumption, especially because we like our meat and we’ve seen that cows contribute quite significantly to greenhouse gas emissions. But, I don’t know how we’re going to do that, how the Nigerian palette is going to be adjusted to be more climate-friendly, because suya is very tasty, and even though it comes from the north, it has been adopted as perhaps a national meal, if you will. So while we really, really like our food, and the food environment has become quite strong commercially, and all of that, the fundamental polarisation along ethnic lines, along gender lines and the potential threat to the city when there are issues outside the city, remains. I think in addition to understanding how to deal with waste, how to engage on addressing the climate crisis as it relates to food, we also need to really think critically about making Lagos more food-independent, if you will. Back to you.

Deji Akinpelu Okay, Professor, can I just speak to something that she spoke to, which seems to be really like an emerging topic, which is food production that we consider a threat to climate change, to our climate, to our environment. I think it’s also one reoccurring topic now. And, it’s good also for us to talk about, to begin to look at how we want to resolve it. So like she was saying suya and then also the issue of kpomo, the state government had even issued a statement that all people should stop eating kpomo because of its production process and effects on the environment. And I think that’s also what we witnessed some years also in terms of fish smoking. But I think this is where research also needs to come in, on how this food can be prepared and produced in such a way that is climate friendly, that people can still enjoy the foods that they want to eat, or is it that we just have to change our palates, like Prof said, or we also invest some time to begin to look at how those food production can be done in a more environmentally safe way. So I just want to put that in. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you Deji. Perhaps, maybe, because I could see maybe some of our audience asking what is suya, what is kpomo, can you just tell us what the two mean? Those are local delicacies.

Deji Akinpelu Ah [laughs] the English names. So, Prof, I didn’t Prof understand more English like this.

Folasade Adeboyejo Okay. For suya, let me help with that. Suya it’s actually beef jerky.

Deji Akinpelu Is suya beef jerky? It’s Kilishi that is beef jerky.

Folasade Adeboyejo Yeah. That’s true. So, suya, what do you call that? Grilled meats?

Taibat Lawanson Grilled barbecued beef skewers. And it’s really nice. Suya is suya, anyway, just like how chicken tikka is chicken tikka, suya is suya. But it’s really nice grilled beef and some done with chicken as well, in spices of peanuts and pepper and all of that. It’s quite savoury. And even though it comes from Nigeria’s north, I think it’s now one of our national dishes in addition to jollof rice, I must say. And then kpomo is the cow skin. It’s highly required in the leather industry, but we have also found a way of it coming into the diet, and it’s been made into stews and sauces and people enjoy it in addition to other parts of the cow.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you Prof for the explanation. I know people will be wondering, how can you eat cow skin, something that is used for leather to make shoes and so on. I think that’s going to be a discussion for another day. Folasade, what are the elements of politics in the management of waste in Lagos, foodwise?

Folasade Adeboyejo Okay. Thank you very much. So the elements of politics that we identified during the course of the research, are to do with various levels of governance. So, like we’ve been saying, there is no concrete action for food waste, either at the legislative level – so the most updated rule of law governing most waste in Lagos State is Lagos State Environmental Management and Protection Law of 2017. In that document, nothing was stated specifically for food waste, but in general, waste was categorised under three categories, in the waste operations category. And those were the tenement waste. And if you go to the tenement waste, which is what was listed, they had the commercial, you have household tenement waste, basically meant all waste emanating from a building, a place that has been rented. So this is how you can actually find food waste to be slotted into that law. So waste generated from households, right, so that’s from the, with respective rule of law, so food waste could either be categorised under commercial, and we use the word commercial because industrial goes a bit towards engineering, so more of commercial and household waste. So with respect to rule of law, that’s under the category for tenements. Then another category where food waste comes in is public waste. And this is what we’ve been talking about with respect to market waste. So that’s with respect to the law. So with respect to other aspects, with respect to governance, and it is how with respect to those who are the stakeholders, those playing in this space. And if we talk about these, as it is today and as I said earlier, the PSP are those which are actually being given the right under the franchise model to have access to waste from household and industry. So to explain that a little bit, so, when it comes to waste management in Lagos, because the core focus has been a lot on plastics and electronics and their likes. So when it comes to waste management in Lagos, the stakeholders, which the government work with directly is PSP, and in this case they work there as a franchise model or a service model. So the franchise models are those that pay franchise to the government for them to be able to access states, so households in order to retrieve their waste from there, while, with respect to service, this has to do with the category of people who manage those within the markets as well as those who clean the highways. And these are another category of people. So in working with stakeholders, the political settlement element, they prefer to work more with PSP. So waste management had been handed to PSP and they work in collaboration under these two categories. Nevertheles, we need to mention that conscious effort is being made thanks to the actions of all the supporting organisations, such as HBS, who are pushing for wider interaction between politics and those other stakeholders which are being seen to be quite informal, but they are much more organised in the way they work. And in this case, we are talking of the informal waste workers and they’ve been able to come together, form a coalition. They are called ASWAL and this is the Association of Scrap and Wastepickers of Lagos. Compared to the past ten years, they are much more recognised. The government now liaise with them to see how they could be integrated into the system and how they could actually make them work, either as a franchise, or the service, but that’s still a discussion which is going on another end. So but at least with respect to the elements of the waste management, so I’m talking with waste management because we say that the most important thing that the food waste is now, is not really developed compared to other sector. So ASWAL, right now the government has been in conversation with them, they’ve been trying to support them. They’ve been able to look for the different players. And just to say there is welcome talk of the ASWAL, which is the Association of Scrap and Wastepickers of Nigeria, these informal waste workers and trying to organise them, they came together as ASWAL and a lot of the players are people from different parts of the country which are picking active roles in the state. And in all honesty, when it comes to waste recovery in Lagos, ASWAL are active participants, even much more active compared to other start-ups which have access to fundings, supports from collaboration – let me use the word collaboration – that collaborate much more easily with the state government compared to the informal waste workers. Nevertheless, the informal waste workers have been much more active before the governance of waste management got where it is right now in the state, either in the past 20 to 30 years ago or right now. Nevertheless, their recognition is just growing and it has improved, in all honesty, compared to the way it was. Because at a point in time, this group of people were once banned from the landfills and it was a complete shut-off, more like their source of livelihood has been cut off completely, and they’ve been able to regroup and improve the way they work to this point. And if you should look at other political elements, so the rule of law, so when it comes to waste management in Lagos State, so it actually comes to a hierarchy and from inception and the involvement of the state – especially when the state was the capital of Nigeria – the initial legal framework gives the management of wastes in Lagos State to local government. But at that point, waste management in Lagos was more state-operated. And if you should look at the numbers of population in the state, there were quite a lot of challenges coming up with their inability to manage it and efforts to improve that are taking away waste management from local governments and had now become a state-managed system. Even at the state level, the inefficiencies were so huge until they got to the point of bringing in the PSP. And in bringing in PSP, this was with a pilot study that was conducted in 1997, 1995 – between 1995 1997 for a period of ten years. And it was actually at the point that there was quite a lot of improvement. At that point, Lagos State was seen to be the debtor state in Nigeria, and with PSP coming up, working in collaboration with the government, they’ve been able to transition the management from state-owned to more like a co-management system, whereby the PSP are working in collaboration with the state’s managers, which is LAWMA, which is Lagos State’s Waste Management Agency. So in working together now, they’ve been able to an extent work effectively for removal of household waste as well as removal of industrial waste. So, as at today, waste management politically is more at the central level, at the state level, but in collaboration with active stakeholders, such as the PSP and other start-ups, working in the space. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you so much Folasade. That means the waste management in Lagos is so intertwined with politics in Lagos State. That’s interesting. We are running short of time, so I’m going to just ask for our last words and if I can start from Taibat, last words from you regarding food distribution logistics in Lagos State.

Taibat Lawanson Yeah, thank you very much. It’s been a really nice conversation and I think, there are just so many opportunities. There are opportunities for food production, there are opportunities for enhancing food security, and there are opportunities for conservation and preservation through food waste governance. And really, taking a closer look at ensuring that less food is wasted and that the food waste is also repurposed and brought back into the system to serve value. So I see it as a win win situation, if we’re able to put a bit of more emphasis on it. And now that Lagos is looking to continue in the second phase of ACRC, there’s a possibility that we can explore these opportunities better. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you so much Taibat, Deji, last words.

Deji Akinpelu Okay. Yeah, it’s been an interesting conversation, the whole mix of political settlement and its influence. Just in addition to what Prof said, we need to pretty much begin to look at these political actors and their influence over the potentials that food waste recycling can generate, because in the waste sector in the city of Lagos, we can clearly see that there is a strong element of politics, during the last election in formal ways, because they are used to go for political rallies, etcetera, et cetera. So that political influence is also a factor we need to consider, as we move forward, as we study the opportunities that abound in food waste. And then also how the informal sector can utilise these new opportunities, how advocacy can be directed towards them to get the necessary support to utilise the opportunities that food waste provides within the system. I think it’s an ongoing discussion, and I think the ACRC can take advantage of the opportunities here. Thank you for having me.

Ismail Ibraheem So, Folasade.

Folasade Adeboyejo Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah. It has been so interesting discussing all this. And, for my last word, something I realised from the waste management system is the plastic waste system, with respect to governance development, got to where it is today because of backings from large corporate organisations. Yes, we can’t rule out international organisations, but also in Nigeria, there were backings at the establishment of the Producer Responsibility Organisation which is PRO. We need this also in the food waste subsector, so we need large corporate organisations which are using large quantities of organic products, using large quantities of agricultural products in their production of food to be able to support the development of organic food waste value chain. And when we’re talking about food waste, we should also not forget that other organic sources, such as wood waste from the wood sector, which is not utilised at the point, could be moved in, as well as other sectors. So looking at not just food waste, but all organic waste stream and different players in the sector needs to be supported because, yes, now that’s also a gap which does not exist. The big players – they need big players to support the different coalitions or start-up businesses which are interested in the sector. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem Thank you so much, Folasade. It has been quite interesting listening to the three experts in the room talk about food distribution and production, the politics underpinning it, how politics permits the operations of food distribution and logistics in Lagos, and the fact that political settlement is central to what is happening in that particular ecosystem. And we have also listened to the role of reform coalition in pushing the frontiers of transformation in that particular sector. Thank you so much Folasade, thank you Taibat, thank you to Deji. From all of us in Lagos ACRC, thank you so much. And, until we come your way again, thank you for listening.

Taibat Lawanson Thank you very much.

Outro You have been listening to the African Cities Podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Chris Jordan Welcome to the African cities podcast. My name is Chris Jordan, I’m the communications manager at ACRC and today I’m joined by Dr Veronica Mwangi. Veronica is based at the department of geography and environmental studies at the University of Nairobi and she’s been closely involved with the research around health, nutrition, wellbeing, since the start of ACRC. So Veronica, thank you very much for joining us.

Veronica Mwangi Thank you, Chris. It’s my pleasure to join you for this discussion.

Chris Jordan Great. So I just wanted to start off, I think when people think about urban issues, generally across African cities, I think for lots of people, healthy diets or nutrition maybe wouldn’t be top of their mind. But is it a big issue in cities like Nairobi and across the continent?

Veronica Mwangi Yes, the issue of healthy diets, as we call it now, generally, we could also refer to it as nutrition, has been a main or a major concern in African cities, as well as in the global South. Most developing countries are still grappling with issues of malnutrition. And African governments have consistently put it as an agenda to try and get to zero malnutrition and to get all populations food secure.

Chris Jordan And do you see any particular issues around nutrition and healthy diets in urban areas as opposed to more rural areas? What’s different about cities?

Veronica Mwangi Well, previous literature has always pointed out to food insecurity and malnutrition being particularly high in the rural areas. But what we find is that as African cities expand, we have a majority of the population settling in informal settlements. And informal settlements are areas that are basically characterised by significantly higher levels of poverty, food insecurity, lack of basic services and infrastructure compared to other areas in the city. Currently it is estimated that at least 60 to 80% of the population in African cities such as Nairobi is based at the informal settlements. Now, with that kind of dense population, you also find that we are having an increase of the urban poor in the informal settlements. So yes, the issue of nutrition and healthy diets is now of concern because of the rising number of urban poor in the urban cities.

Chris Jordan So you were part of the team that undertook some deep dive research around the health, wellbeing and nutrition domain in the foundation phase of the ACRC work, with a focus on Nairobi. Could you just tell me a bit about that research, how did you go about it and what sort of new insights did it generate?

Veronica Mwangi Okay, in the foundation phase of our ACRC research project, we were interested in looking at the health, wellbeing and nutrition of the populations in the informal settlements. And we had about two, three questions that we sought to answer. And the first was that we wanted to establish the patterns of food insecurity and ill health in the informal settlements. Then another major question was that we wanted to find out what are the main characteristics of access to nutritious diets and health services. And we were also interested in looking at the processes and the policies that influence access to healthy diets. So in summary, we were trying to establish what are the factors that either enable or inhibit access to healthy diets in the informal settlements. And so, having undertaken data collection, analysis, we were able to have insights into the perceptions of healthy diets by the community. We were also able to establish some of the factors that inhibit uptake of healthy diets by the communities and also some of the factors that also enable the uptake of diets. So perhaps I could just highlight some of the findings of that phase one of the study. Key among our findings is that we established a set of economic constraints to uptake of healthy diets. These included low levels of income that compromise on the purchasing power of households. We also established that unemployment was a hindrance towards access to healthy diets. In fact, previous studies have also found that unemployment levels are relatively high in the informal settlements compared to other areas in the cities where we have the middle and the high income households. Another barrier that we clustered under the economic constraint was issues such as poverty and households were still suffering from the effects of Covid-19, especially in terms of employment and income. Now we also had some market-related constraints, such as high cost of food, particularly those foods that are considered to be healthy. Issues such as high prices of cooking fuel, clean cooking fuel such as LPG [liquefied petroleum gas], were also raised by community members during our discussions. We have issues surrounding food safety and hygiene. Food environments in the informal settlements tend to be compromised by lack of good infrastructure. So issues such as food adulteration, poor food handling, low access to water, poor sanitation, were some of the issues that are barriers to uptake of healthy diets. We also have some household dynamics that we found to be a hindrance towards the uptake of healthy diets. Characteristics like household size; families that are large tend to struggle to have sufficient healthy food options for everyone. We have issues such as cultural and religious practices that also hinder uptake. We also found out something that has also been pointed out by previous studies: the issue of maternal and child feeding practices. Issues such as alcoholism seem to be raising serious concerns in terms of how households make dietary choices and how children are raised. So alcoholism seems to now be a concern in the community, with even young mothers suddenly getting into such behaviours that compromise on the feeding of children. So those were just some of the findings that came up during our phase one project and those relate to various, we also were interested in finding out whether they are factors that enable uptake of their healthy diets.

Chris Jordan Okay, so it’s quite a complex and systematic issues that you found and as you were talking, there’s obviously clear overlaps with other areas of ACRC work around housing and informal settlements, around livelihoods and employment, around mental health and youth opportunities, so it’s interesting to see them all coming together a little bit through through this lens of food and diets. So, as you’re saying, you did all this initial scoping research, you mapped out a huge number of sort of problems and issues. Where were you able then to take things and to look more at the solutions for some of these issues?

Veronica Mwangi We held several meetings and workshops with community members to try and find out what would be most ideal or a priority in terms of addressing some of the challenges related to healthy diets. And initially we had about four ideas that came out from the several workshops that we had. I remember some of the ideas revolved around in social protection to improve food access. So we thought about integration of food security, nutrition and health in social protection programmes. Then we thought about school feeding programmes as a safety net, in terms of social protection to improve food access for children who may have been identified as among the vulnerable populations in the informal settlements, in terms of access to healthy diets. Then we had an idea around food safety and hygiene. Given the growing importance of street foods in the informal settlements and the concerns around health and safety of the street foods, then we thought that perhaps it’s an area that we could delve into to try and see what could be done in terms of improving food safety and hygiene. We also had a third idea on energy, how to improve access to affordable clean energy. And a fourth idea revolved around primary and preventive and healthcare, to try to strengthen some of the programmes that are existing in the community, such as the community health volunteer programme, in order to upscale or enhancing awareness and education on nutrition. Well, when we thought through the four ideas, we settled on one. And we thought perhaps we could focus on the school feeding programmes so that we benefit children who we viewed to be more impacted by the negative outcomes of poor nutrition. So… By the end of phase two, we thought that one of the most important priority complex problems was on nutrition of children. So we thought that improving the health and nutrition conditions of children in the informal settlements, through a sustainable and affordable school feeding programme, would be of impact to a vulnerable group of persons in the informal settlements.

Chris Jordan And school feeding programmes aren’t a new idea, either in Kenya or indeed in the UK or in other countries. In Nairobi, what’s been sort of blocking progress so far? Why have they not taken off up until now?

Veronica Mwangi Yeah, yeah, very, very true, Chris. School feeding programmes is not a new idea globally. Even in Kenya, school feeding programmes have existed since the 19… even before 1980s, there was still a school feeding programmes, though some of the most impactful ones are traced back to the 1980s and 90s. What there is is that informal settlements have both public and private schools, and majority of the children in the informal settlements attend private informal schools, which fill up a gap in the absence of sufficient public schools in the settlements. There are few public schools in the informal settlements. cannot cater for the majority of the children. Now, currently, the county government has a school feeding programme in the public schools. And the same is not running in informal private schools. So it means that majority of the children in the informal settlements have been excluded from the government’s school feeding programme. And so, we thought that… That is a gap that the project can fill in. We also found that most of the informal schools in the informal settlements are not able to afford provision of school meals to the children. So, again, that confirms the gap in terms of providing school meals in the private informal schools.

Chris Jordan And I presume that the Nairobi county government are aware of this gap and the fact that children who are going to school in informal settlements aren’t able to access any decent food at lunchtime. Are they trying to do something about it? Is it something they’re aware of, or is it just a lack of resources or focus? What’s behind that decision?

Veronica Mwangi Well, the school feeding programme by the city county government is relatively new. It’s been running for about, say, two years or less now. And true, the county government is aware that they are not providing school meals to all school children in Nairobi County. There may be plans in the future to provide the meals to the informal schools. But currently, the county government has not yet extended the programme to the informal schools. After all, in most African countries, we grapple between the divide of formal versus informal. And what you find is that government services tend to be limited to formal institutions, with most state governments sort of ignoring or shying away from provision of services to informal institutions, basically due to their informality. And… You also acknowledge that most informal institutions tend not to be protected under the legal framework. So then there would need to be consideration or discussions around how the government extends such services to informal institutions. So we can only hope that there are such discussions going on so that in the future all these informal schools are able to benefit from such programmes because one project alone cannot be sufficient or cannot have the resources and muscle to cover all the informal schools.

Chris Jordan So I believe part of the current phase of action research that you’re undertaking at the moment is looking at different models and different ways in which informal schools could be brought into the feeding programmes. How are you going about that research and what’s the progress so far?

Veronica Mwangi Well, let me say we have made quite some progress and one key lesson that I have learned with action-oriented research is that it tends to drag its feet because the action-oriented research gives priority or precedence to the community to generate the solutions. And so far, I would say that we are at the stage at which we are evaluating the existing school feeding programme together with the community core structures. So, what will happen is that we shall have a look at the existing feeding programmes in some of the schools that have them. And the community core researchers will pick up lessons from the existing school feeding programmes and sort of tease out what would work for their schools. And this is a process in which now we co-create the school feeding programme. So once we have visited schools with existing school feeding programmes, we shall then converge and then sort of design what works for each of the schools or all of the schools and then test it and implement.

Chris Jordan I know you’ve said that working very closely with the community and community researchers is a slower process than just doing it yourself, but do you think it’s been an effective approach so far?

Veronica Mwangi Yes, and it’s effective and also different from some of the research that we have undertaken before, because in this kind of scenario, we as researchers would like to benefit from the community knowledge. So, we get together with the community members who will be the beneficiaries of the project. So it’s slow because also in the process we as researchers learn from the community. We are able to understand their needs in order to know their priority. The community can express what is pressing for them, what is priority for them, and also suggest what would possibly work for them. So in this case, as researchers, we act as technical persons, sort of guiding in terms of how to proceed and how to design, but most of the ideas will come from the community, whom in this case we co-opt as for researchers into the project.

Chris Jordan And do you think as a result of that, do you think different ideas or different priorities emerge than if researchers or academics had just led the project and come up with the solutions? Does it feel like it generates different results?

Veronica Mwangi Yes, it definitely does, because you can only imagine that since the community is involved along the process, from the word go, in the initial, you know, once we have the concepts and it’s presented to the community, and the community, you know, picks up what is the priority for them. We develop that idea. Remember we talked about the four priority complex problems that we identified from phase one. And from the workshop discussions with the community, they picked up school feeding as one of the avenues that may be more impactful for them in terms of nutrition for children. So we get together with the community, they own the idea and that is very important in terms of implementation of a project that you get more results first in terms of the community owning up to the idea and being able to really bring out what would work for them. So that kind of approach contributes to let’s say the success of such an action-oriented research project.

Chris Jordan And on a more personal level, is it something that you are enjoying as a process, as an approach?

Veronica Mwangi Oh, definitely. I have really enjoyed working. Initially, I wondered what do we actually mean by action-oriented research? In fact, I must admit that I’ve had to do sort of like a mental shift, whereby I have to remind myself that it’s the community first, then the researchers, you know. The opposite is that in our academic research projects, we design tools, we collect data, we analyse and make policy recommendations. What is different in this case is that the community is involved in all the processes. We design the ideas with them, we collect data with the community. We analyse the data with them and we design the solutions. And then the beauty is that we actually implement this designed solution. So, in a way, it’s been a good learning experience for me. And in terms of the structure of our projects, the fact that it’s action-oriented research, but within it, we have structures that are unique. For example, we have the issue of political settlements and city of systems in the projects. And political settlements is particularly important because it gives us that opportunity or that emphasis to really look or reflect on how our systems, especially politically and governance, affect us and what is their place in finding the solutions. So the emphasis of our project on political settlements is unlike others that have worked before. You know, in other projects, we just tend to generate policy briefs. However, there’s been deliberate efforts by ACRC to understand how politics influence the current situation and also how we can closely work with government and politicians whose goodwill in terms of project implementation and success is crucial. Another angle to how different this project is, is the issue of coalitions. Our project has had an emphasis on coalitions, what we also tend to term as reform coalitions. And it’s quite impressive that in the project, we are several partners working together, so that each partner benefits from the expertise of the other. So you find we have the university, we have the community, the Muungano members, we have SDI-Kenya, and we also have LVCT, which is a research organisation by itself. And so we have formed a coalition that will help us leverage on the strength of each other. And I found that to be very important in terms of addressing our challenges, that one institution cannot work very well alone. And so the issue of coalitions, I think, is something that should be pursued by researchers. And maybe finally, on a personal level, I also want to point out on capacity building. And the project has really taken into consideration and provided opportunities for the different actors within the project to develop. Where I stand as a researcher, this is the first project that has had an initiative of bringing about early career researchers together to train them on writing, to help in dissemination. You’ll find that other projects will tend to ask one to identify a training, then pay for that training. But this has been done within. But I’ve also found that in terms of capacity building for community members, their project has been very deliberate on developing those capacity of community leaders, so that they are able to have the capacity to identify solutions and to be able to integrate also with researchers in developing solutions. So you find the project is keen on developing each actor within the project. Maybe those are some of the issues that I would raise.

Chris Jordan Well, thank you so much for sharing them. It’s really fascinating and inspiring to hear how it’s all coming together for you. I know the school feeding action research projects are still at a relatively early stage, so we’re really interested to keep tabs on it and to see where it goes next, how it evolves, what sort of influence you’re able to generate as a result of coming up with new models and working in these coalitions. And so, yeah, I’d be really keen to talk to you again a little bit down the line once you’ve made some more progress. But for today, thank you so much for sharing all those insights with us, Veronica, and we will see you again soon.

Veronica Mwangi Thank you, Chris. I’m also excited by what lies ahead. And we hope it will be exciting because the project seems to have a very strong desire towards causing change. So we are just not ticking a box. There’s a strong desire from all quarters of the project to really cause change and to see that a solution is implemented.

Outro You have been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Tom Goodfellow Hello, everybody, and welcome to the African Cities podcast. We’re here today to talk about urban land brokers in Africa. And this is some work that’s come out of the land and connectivity domain of the African Cities Research Consortium. I’m Tom Goodfellow, I was one of the leaders of that domain of research in the first phase of the African Cities Research Consortium’s work. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by my colleagues, Abdifatah Tahir, who was working, among other things, on land issues in Mogadishu, and also Eria Serwajja and Muhamed Lunyago, who are both from Kampala, and who led on the work that we were doing on urban land and connectivity in Kampala. And the reason we’re talking about land brokers today is because this is something that came across as being really quite significant in the work, in the research that people did in the cities we were working in, and particularly in Kampala and Mogadishu. So just to give a bit more background, in this domain of work, we were looking at issues around land tenure, land conflicts, how new infrastructure connections affect land values and land conflicts, these kinds of things, exploring the interaction of infrastructure investment and land in African cities. And we were looking at this in Kampala and in Mogadishu, but also in Accra, in Bukavu in the eastern Congo, in Harare, and in Maiduguri in Nigeria. So we have studies on all of these cities. But in Mogadishu and Kampala especially, we found that the role of land brokers was coming through as being really significant in the land markets and land dynamics in those cities. And we had a webinar, which hopefully some of our listeners here might have tuned into, where we talked about all of the cities in our set and a whole range of different findings from our report. And in that webinar, we also got a strong sense from the audience that there was a real interest in this question of brokers and their roles. So we had people joining us from different cities across Africa, and they wanted to know more. There’s also not that much literature, I think, on urban land brokers. A lot of it is focused on different parts of the world and on rural brokers. So we’re here to explore this issue of land brokers more. Let me now introduce, or allow my colleagues to introduce themselves a bit more. I’ll just go round. Do you want to start, Abdi, and just say a little bit about yourself and your background?

Abdifatah Tahir My name’s Abdi. I’m from Somalia, and I was one of the researchers working on the land issues in Somalia in the domain of land and connectivity.

Tom Goodfellow Great. Thank you. Eria?

Eria Serwajja I am from Makerere University. My background is in urban planning, and I also have background in land governance, land tenure administration, and land conflicts that I did at a PhD level. So I also led the land and connectivity domain research in Kampala.

Tom Goodfellow Great. Thank you. And Muhamed?

Muhamed Lunyago I am Muhamed Lunyago. I’m a PhD fellow at the Makerere Institute of Social Research, Makerere University. I was also a researcher in the land and connectivity domain in Kampala City.

Tom Goodfellow Great. Thank you. And just for my own institutional affiliation, which I forgot to mention, I’m based at the University of Sheffield in the School of Geography and Planning. OK. So to kick things off, I want to just ask why land brokers matter? Why is this something that came up as being significant in your cities on the research on urban land and how it works? And, as I say, our stakeholders who came to the webinar also seem to think that they mattered in many other cities. So what difference do you think they make to the city and the city’s development? It would just be good to hear from some of you about that. Eria?

Eria Serwajja I think land brokers are very important in terms of connecting buyers and sellers, particularly in our context, where the land market is less developed. For instance, if a person is looking for land to buy and completely has no connection and has no time, then the brokers often come as a quick fix. So for me, brokers are very important in easing and quickening the transactions, but also connecting those that are willing to buy and willing to sell. So without them, like it was in the 1980s and 70s, it was often very difficult for somebody who even had the money to buy to find an authentic seller of the land. So in that context, for me, the land brokers are very important and have become a crucial part in terms of land transactions. Although they operate informally, in my view, many of these transactions often find their way into the formal system. So their informality is somewhat becoming a little bit formal. So for me, from the context of the work we’ve done in Kampala, that is the value of land brokers.

Tom Goodfellow OK, that’s fascinating. Thinking about cities that are growing as fast as Kampala – and some of that growth is internal, but some of it’s from migration – this sense that it eases people’s entry into the city, right, being able to find a plot of land for people who are unfamiliar with the local scene. And I think we should come back to that issue of them becoming more formal as well. But maybe we can hear a little bit more on Kampala from Muhamed before handing over to hear about Mogadishu. Muhamed.

Muhamed Lunyago Sure. Well, I think land brokers are becoming important also because the people themselves, especially those that want to buy land, find it a little bit convenient to go through them, given the time it would take them to look for land anywhere. Kampala is quite a huge city and not everyone in the city knows all the places and which places have which kind of amenities and infrastructures. And yet the brokers have most of this information. And if they did search for land by themselves, they would actually take a lot of time and then a lot of money, it would cost them quite a lot. So going through a broker who actually has more of this information, because one of the roles they play is to gather this information and be able to pass it on to the prospective land buyers is what they do, and then becomes a little bit convenient.

Eria Serwajja I think also, Tom, the issue of brokers having multiple options, you as a buyer of the land, you could actually be looking in one direction, but the brokers often have this array of options and they will take you to multiple pieces of land where you’d actually think that some of that could be much better than you had imagined before. So for me, they offer, apart from shortening of time, those options that come to the table are very crucial for the buyer.

Tom Goodfellow OK, so does what you’ve heard there, Abdi, speak to the situation in Mogadishu in terms of their role and how they work? Or would you describe anything differently in the context of Mogadishu?

Abdifatah Tahir I think Muhamed and Eria’s discussion regarding Kampala very much relates to Mogadishu as well. But in addition to what they’ve already said about Kampala, in Mogadishu, obviously there are, because of the conditions of fragility, there are overlapping claims on land, and property ownership is not very clear. So the work of the brokers becomes so important in that regard, in the sense that it becomes like an issue of security. For instance, if you want to buy land in Mogadishu and you don’t know about the clarity on the ownership and sometimes you don’t even trust the papers and all of that, they become an extra layer of security in finding out the right land, who it belongs to and all of this. So their work then comes across as a very important component of the land market in Mogadishu.

Tom Goodfellow OK, so in some senses, when in any situation where you buy and sell land or property, these agents come into play. And, here in the UK, obviously we talk about estate agents, who are heavily formalised and there’s a certain degree of transparency in how they work. And of course, there are formal estate agents, certainly in Kampala and I imagine to some extent in Mogadishu. But how are brokers different? So I’m interested in the language that’s being used as well. Maybe before we go any further, what words are used locally? Because when we were talking with our other colleagues in Nigeria and other contexts, we found, I think, when we were talking about brokers that people meant different things. So some people were actually thinking more of perhaps developers who might buy land, subdivide it, do a bit of work and sell it on, rather than just connecting buyer and seller. And of course, you have sometimes high-level aggregators of land parcels and they all might have different words that go with them. So it would be interesting to know, in your context, what is the word people are using? What does it translate as in English, do you think?

Abdifatah Tahir In Mogadishu, they use the word “dilal”, which more or less means like intermediaries. It is just somebody who arranges the transaction between you and the seller of the land. And it is also about having accurate information about the land they are selling. So I think this word dates back… the brokerage system when it comes to land, it’s not a very old thing. It’s a new phenomenon. It only started in the 80s, due to the urbanisation trade that has gone quite high at the time because of many people going abroad, especially in the Middle East, where they had to work and were remitting significant amounts of money to build houses for themselves. But before that, the word dilal, which is like the intermediaries, it was often used for the livestock market, where traders used to arrange the sale between the rural folks who own livestock and the urban folks who want to buy from them and export it to the Middle East. So the intermediaries between that particular trade. Then it was in the 80s – it only gained momentum in the 80s – that it became also applied to other markets, like other forms of trade, including goods import from outside and people who do the intermediaries, as well as the land market. So dilal is not something unique to the land market. It also applies to all sorts of intermediaries, including goods, exchanges, as well as the livestock.

Tom Goodfellow That’s really interesting to hear that background of how brokerage has kind of moved from other places, like into land relatively recently. How would you tell that story in Kampala, Eria?

Eria Serwajja Yeah, for Kampala, the word is “kayungirizi”, meaning the connector, the person who connects one person to the other. I mean, the person is connecting the buyer to the seller. But other terms, like “dealer” have also come in, a person who is into a deal, which is you’re trying to do something for quick money. Quick money means there is a buyer, a person who has the land to sell. So you’re looking for a buyer and you’re getting some little money off it. So that’s your intention here. But there has also been a transition, as I’ve heard from Somalia. There has been a transition from people who have been kayungirizi or the connectors or the dealers into real estate. Many of the kayungirizi or the dealers come together to start buying portions of land, which they cut into small pieces, apportion into small pieces, 50 by 100 or 50 by 50 or 100 by 50 and they are for sale. So this transition is now seen in Kampala, where brokers have now transitioned into some sort of real estate dealers in a way. So, again, but they don’t often abandon their dealing role or their connecting role. They continue to do it, but they now become a little bit bigger with some bit of money and therefore can become real estate dealers.

Tom Goodfellow So this picks up on what you were saying earlier, I think, about how they’re becoming more formal. And there are obviously real estate agents who are quite high end and have a formal office and maybe have registered their business formally. And you can go there and look at pictures and they’re online. Is there a hard line between an estate agent who is formal in that way and these brokers, or is it more fluid, are they, one can become the other? I’m just wondering about the relationship between the formal and informal there.

Eria Serwajja Within our country, I think there’s a thin line between the formal and informal. But I want to take you back a little bit to how this land brokerage started. In Uganda, there was one gentleman who was called Kasule and that particular time, the term was “Kasule” property agent’. So one individual comes up with the idea to start connecting buyers to sellers and he was the only one in town. And his downfall was that he expanded so quickly to almost different parts of the country. But my thinking also is that the politicians became a little more threatened because he became so powerful within Kampala. So he had land and connections across the country. So in that line – and land is a political issue in our country, it embodies all those socioeconomic and cultural aspects – so in a way, he collapsed terribly. But that is how real estate and brokerage started in the country. He was actually, the land broker did not exist in fact, his name was Kasule then, that everybody who mentioned his personal name would ideally point to land brokerage or a person who is connecting buyer to the sellers. But his company collapsed. And of course, he became indented, he was pronounced bankrupt. And up to now, he lives a very silent life in Kampala. But he had transitioned the country from this informal process that people do not know that there is anything like land brokerage. And everybody now started picking up land dealer, land broker. And now the entire country, you find every other small town and village has a land broker, whatever you want, whether in Kampala or out of Kampala. Every village, whether they are LCs, have also become land brokers. So there’s a thin line between the formal and informal. In fact, those that are informal often start to formalise and they have offices and they have bank accounts and that’s how the process goes. But when they become bankrupt, they now fall back into the informal system. So there’s a fluid kind of line and thin line between formal and informal.

Tom Goodfellow OK, so this is interesting. This gets me as well onto this issue of legitimacy and trust, because it’s clear that these actors have gone from being non-existent actually quite recently, over a few decades, to being really key players in the land market. And clearly a lot of trust has to be put in them, in terms of the information that they hold and people considering it to be reliable or valid. But there are also maybe different categories and it’s interesting to hear there are different words which perhaps have different degrees of legitimacy. So I wondered if you could just say a bit more about, are these actors in general people who are trusted? Are they seen as a positive actor in the city that people really need? Or is there some sense that there are distinct categories? There are the real ones, the legitimate ones and the illegitimate ones, regardless of formal or informal categories.

Eria Serwajja It was largely practised previously by unemployed young men and young women. Of course, very few women – it’s just now that they are entering into the system – but unemployed, less educated, that category of persons who do not seem to have hope, if I could say that. So by their very nature, it means that there’s less trust in this category of persons. It means that the information they hold sometimes is very untrue, that you can’t trust such a person. So the trust initially wasn’t there. It’s now that when you start to formalise, you start to give people hope that I am the legitimate person, I have an address, I have an office. And those particular issues become very important, in terms of sieving out who is formal and who is informal. So formalisation means there is an office, they have an address, you have legitimate phone numbers and now they advertise, which wasn’t there before.

Tom Goodfellow I think there’s a few things that I want to pick up. But come in, Muhamed, if you’ve got something to add there.

Muhamed Lunyago Yeah, I think also on the question of trust, people as of now seem to appear like they don’t have a choice than to deal with the brokers, whether they trust them or they don’t trust them. So they just rely on the fact that, well, we don’t have a choice. We cannot do this on our own. And you could become a little bit more vulnerable to risks of theft and robbery in the land transaction than you would when you’re dealing alone. So they don’t trust them that much. But it’s like they don’t have much choices, you know. Also, given the fact that even some of the land sellers actually want to hide some of their transactions from maybe their close family members and associates and stuff like that, that it becomes quite difficult for them to deal directly with some land buyers and then they have to go through brokers. And it’s quite hard to know who is selling which kind of land if the land seller himself is not putting up a poster or telling people that I’m selling. The first point of contact for them is to go to a broker and people just find it a bit convenient to go to them, not because there is a lot of trust in what they do, but because the options they have without the brokers are quite limited.

Tom Goodfellow Yeah, that’s really interesting as well, because it’s like some people obviously want the whole thing to be quite secret. They want to use a broker because they’re concealing something they’re doing. They don’t want the sale to be visible. So that issue of the secrecy of brokers is kind of baked into what they do. And obviously for other people, that can be risky because you don’t know if they’re actually ripping you off in all kinds of ways. But yeah, there is a tension there between wanting it to be secretive and wanting to have that transparency. I’d just be interested to hear from you, Abdi, about those issues around legitimacy, trust, concealment in the case of Mogadishu.

Abdifatah Tahir Yeah, in Mogadishu actually, for maybe the purpose of determining the price, initially you may even conceal the information, the correct information regarding how much the land was intended to be sold. But at later stages, it becomes evident because you have to meet who the owner is. And in the case of Mogadishu, the transaction takes place not between the broker and the person who is buying the land. It is rather between the seller and the buyer. So the broker’s role is the facilitator of the transaction between these two parties. And for that reason, the concealment of information is as much as it regards only making sure that you don’t directly make a contact with the person who is selling the land. And when the transaction is agreed upon, then the two parties are brought together and it is final. So concealment goes as far as that. Regarding the trust, I think since there is no money that will be given to the brokers directly in the beginning, there is not much of an issue regarding whether a broker is trusted with the money. But the trust issue comes into the picture as regards the price, because if the broker hikes the price, it means also more commission for him, especially if the commission is coming in the form of a percentage of the total amount for which the land is to be sold. So in that case, there is a bit of mistrust in that aspect. But more generally, people trust them, mainly because of the fact that it’s very difficult for you, as the other two speakers said, to find a land for yourself, unless you have these intermediates, who find it for you.

Eria Serwajja Yeah. Tom, you’re talking about trust, but we’ve also seen in Kampala that brokers do not trust landowners. So this also trust is two ways. In Kampala city, brokers have gone to the extent of signing agreements with the land sellers, those that are putting up land for sale and agreeing on the price. And this price is even being put in the agreement, although it’s illegal, it’s not within the law that a broker can make an agreement with you, the seller, because they are not the actual buyers anyway. But this is what is happening. So this trust is also two-way for Kampala, that the brokers also don’t trust. In fact, there is a word in Kampala that they use when they are referring to you as a seller, who makes a U-turn after realising that the broker is getting a lot of money. They will ask you, if I may directly translate, that’ I hope your heart will not bulge, will not become big’ – “Tojja kuzimba mutima”. It means that when you see that the broker is getting a huge percentage because of the amount that is going to the broker, then you make a U-turn as the seller, because you think they have not done anything, they are getting free money, and therefore in their own terminology, they will say that the seller gets a bulging heart. It means that you become envious that they are getting free money. And that’s why many of them are starting to have this argument, to say, I hope, Tom, you will not be able to change your mind when you find a buyer. So can we reach an agreement if we think you’re going to change your mind? And these agreements are starting to emerge, as we’ve seen in Kampala.

Tom Goodfellow But it seems the issue is also the brokers can not only take their 10 % fee, but they can also take sometimes the difference between what the seller says they want, and then what the buyer actually pays. But I think…

Abdifatah Tahir That’s a bit of a difference in Mogadishu, because the transfer of money will be taking place between the seller and the buyer. So it is not like between the seller, the broker and the buyer. This is not in that order. So that is why, other than what is stated, there is no hidden cost.

Tom Goodfellow You can’t conceal.

Abdifatah Tahir You can’t conceal.

Tom Goodfellow It seems like in Kampala there is sometimes some concealment going on between what the buyer is paying and what the seller knows. Is that right, Eria?

Eria Serwajja Yeah, sometimes that happens for Kampala. But the thing is that there has to be an agreement written. The issue is that the broker will negotiate with the buyer separately, they agree on a price, and then come to the seller to say, this is what comes to you. In the end, all this has to be factored in the agreement. But that must also come to the knowledge of the seller. And at that point, when the transaction is going on, because they either go to the bank, normally these ones go to the bank because it’s huge monies, and often transfers are done in the bank. Sometimes it’s cash. Of course, it’s risky, but it happens, particularly for money that is either corruption money or money from these illegal deals. So that often happens. But the thing is, at that point, then you have that mistrust, boils up to a certain point to say, I am not giving away my land because you’re taking much. But we’ve seen, and I’ve spoken to people in Kampala, people who have been attacked by brokers after selling the land where you had a first batch of brokers give you the actual price. For instance, if my land is 15 million and the brokers find a buyer who is 20 and you make a U-turn and you say I’m not selling any more, when they realise that you have sold the land with another batch of brokers at 20 million, they will say, hey, we came here, you wasted our time. And I’ve seen one particular example and spoken to one person who has been attacked in a way.

Tom Goodfellow By a broker? Yeah, yeah. So the technicalities of paying and selling make a difference to how important trust is, to who’s able to extract more money. I just want to turn to the kind of implications of this for people concerned with broader urban development and equality and inclusion issues. Has this really pushed up the price of land in a way that might exclude poorer people from access to land? Because I guess you can argue before there were brokers, people might be able to charge whatever they wanted for their land because it was harder for buyers to find a plot of land. But at the same time, brokers mean that there are many more buyers who might be able to access one plot. And so that could push up the demand and push up the price. How do you think the role of brokers is affecting the prices of land in your cities? Is it having a significant impact?

Eria Serwajja Yeah, Tom, for our case in Kampala, there came this category of brokers called special buyers. That was what they called special buyers, the category of high-end politicians, those that work within… And another term that came up is “Kutikkula” meaning offloading – those who have offloaded from the Treasury – and that was the phrase that was used. If someone has offloaded money, has stolen money from the Treasury, that person is willing to pay any price. So one of the brokers that we engaged in Kampala, indicated how a particular land buyer from one of the neighbouring countries told him that “I want to buy off my neighbour. Please ask him how much he wants for his land, including the house where he lives”. And the person said, “No, I am not selling”, and sent him again to say, “please go and ask him. I’m giving him a blank cheque. Let him write how much he wants for his land”. And the person, I think, asked for money. But the broker knew exactly how much this person had reserved to buy the neighbour’s plot, to buy him off at whatever cost. So when this person wrote the amount of the money on the blank cheque, the broker just laughed it off. In any case, the broker became much more rich because he made a huge amount out of that deal. But indeed, the buyer, who was a foreign national, bought off the neighbour, to expand his land, was not willing to relocate and go out of town, so this land brokerage is also going to drive people to landlessness. And we’ve started to see this happen. The, I forget the term, but the issue is you would not be selling the land, but the amount of money that is being given to you may make you think overnight. And the following morning you make a decision to sell off your land, sell off your house and any other property because of the obscene amount of money that is being put on the table through this brokerage, money laundering schemes around Kampala. You’ve heard about the billions of money in Kisenyi that made headlines in the newspapers and the newspaper indicated that that is the most expensive land on the African continent, just one acre, better than Cape Town or Cairo. So at the end of the day, these particular processes are going to push urban landowners, but who are the urban poor, into landlessness, because this is what it is at the moment.

Tom Goodfellow So if I understood right, you’re suggesting that there are people, and maybe this would apply to people who farm land on the fringe of the city and so on, who would make themselves landless because they can see all this speculation and money coming in, often from money laundering, that they would, even if they had no plan to sell their land, they would give up their land and potentially their livelihood for some quick money. And this is actually causing long -term problems in the city.

Eria Serwajja Absolutely.

Tom Goodfellow It’s very worrying. I’m not sure if anyone else has any thoughts on that question of inclusion and landlessness. Muhamed?

Muhamed Lunyago Yeah. You know, in the case of Kampala, so the highest price paid for a piece of land in an area sets the standard for the remaining pieces of land surrounding it. When someone comes and buys a plot of land in an area, say maybe 200 million shillings, and when initially the cost of that particular land was 50 million shillings, most of the people would be asking for money in the range of 200 million shillings, because that alone sets the standard for how much that land can cost around there, because they’ve seen it happen. And usually some of the people that are able to pull up these amounts of money to buy a plot of land want to protect themselves from not having these many poor people surrounding them. So they will try as much as possible to come and buy off most of the neighbours and also influence others in their circles to come and buy such pieces of land. So in the end, you realise that first the land is becoming too expensive for the poor and sometimes also the middle class, but also they are forced off the land, either by the amount of money that is paid, like Eria is saying, or you are forced off completely, sometimes violently, to leave the land because of the protection that these people need for themselves. Yeah.

Tom Goodfellow And the brokers themselves, Abdi, did you want to come in on some thoughts on Mogadishu there?

Abdifatah Tahir Yeah, in Mogadishu, brokers as well drive, as already has been said, speculation in the city. In the sense that, as Muhamed was saying, it so happens that the asking price of a particular plot of land in a given area determines what comes after that. So it’s not based on a rationale or real assessment of what the real land value of that plot is. It is based on what the next plot has been sold for. So that is very common. And it creates a condition in which many people, not necessarily are a fool, but rather on the fact that the price they would be getting for a piece of land is a lot higher than the real value of it. They sell their land and maybe later on, then again, struggle to find similarly convenient land for them. So it complicates things like commuting to work and all that, because they may sell their appropriately located land, which had maybe better access to all the amenities they need, or maybe the work facilities and all, or maybe the opportunities of work available for the poor people in that sort of land. So it creates a lot of layered problems for the poor people in the city. And in the case of Mogadishu, it particularly attracts a lot of money from the diaspora, which invests in areas they think maybe would have a very good land value, in case they decide to resell. And even that, Mogadishu was experiencing a new class of middle class elite, mainly because of the aid money and because of the booming trade in the city. There’s a new class of economic elites who tend to buy land as a form of investment for the future, predicated on the fact that they think it would sell for a much higher price for them in the future. So these are the things which are negatively affecting the poor people in the city.

Eria Serwajja Yeah, so one issue that I think we see what is happening in Mogadishu being similar to what happens in Kampala. But though the challenge, I think from my end, is governments do not seem to have clear ideas on land values in different areas. That when you have a special buyer like Uganda National Roads Authority, which would be, for instance, compensating for expansion of the road and compensating those people that are very close to the infrastructure, then that sets the price. I mean, you have a government institution with, say, World Bank funding, which is setting the price for the localities within. And that often becomes a challenge that we have also, in our case, where people invite to say, my property should also be taken, because they know when Uganda National Roads Authority, you know, is compensating, it does not compensate like a normal person like Eria or Abdi or Mehdi. So at the end of the day, people keep inviting, “please let also my property and my land be affected”, because they know this is the time to make money. So the lack of clear land values for particular areas set by the state, but of course within a neoliberal economy, then also becomes very difficult. How does the state intervene when it’s open market? So that’s the kind of dynamic, I think, that we are in.

Tom Goodfellow We’ll come back in a minute to the question of state regulation, I think, as we perhaps wrap up. But I mean, it’s obviously normal for land values to be determined by other values in the area and not by the state. Right? I mean, so the way in which land values are assessed is obviously through market processes that are connected to perceived value in certain areas. But I’m wondering about the role of brokers within this. Right? Because in the academic literature on land brokers, there’s quite a lot about India and a lot of it’s quite rural, as I said. But there’s this debate, are they just linking people in a market, lubricating, connecting or do they have some kind of agency? Are they actually doing various things, the tricks of the trade that push those values up? Do you see what I mean? Like the brokers themselves. And I just wondered how you see them in that way. Are they actually making the market, shaping the market in some way, rather than just these connectors? It seems to me from some of the things you said that they have some significant agency here, right? In terms of the things they do to build. Yeah.

Eria Serwajja Yeah, they’ve made a transition, of course, as indicated earlier from how land brokerage started. I mean, even the terminology “brokerage” now has become mainstream, but initially it wasn’t there. So there has been a transition, with many of them becoming a little bit formal, establishing offices, we have these contacts. Now the debate within our country is to have them more formalised. There is the Real Estate Bill, which is before parliament. And any time when it gets to the end of the conveyor belt, then it will be mandatory for a broker to be registered with an address and within an association so that the state has this hand within the brokerage dynamics that they can be sanctioned. You can be thrown out and new ones come through. So they are getting formalised within the mainstream and institutional systems and processes of the government. So in a way, this is what is happening within our end. And brokers, by the way, are also rushing very fast to form associations. You have area association, Real Estate in Uganda, for instance. You have all these small but emerging associations which are going to be finally within the mainstream government establishment.

Tom Goodfellow OK. Yeah, I’d like to come back in a minute to what that means. If they want to be formalised and everybody is on the same page about this, then maybe that’s quite a positive thing going forward. And perhaps this period of a slightly Wild West brokerage with a lot of violence and conflict and extraction – things might be moving in a more positive direction, perhaps. But before we perhaps reflect on that question, I wanted to pick up on a few things you said around women and also around the digital revolution in communications. I’m not sure whether those things are connected. But, because you said that more women are now able to enter this profession as brokers than in the past, which is interesting, so I’m wondering how common that is and if it’s been in part facilitated by a lot of things becoming digital. And more generally, it would just be really interesting to hear about the digital mediation or the digitisation of brokerage and what effect that might be having on the land market, on who gets to access land.

Abdifatah Tahir In the Mogadishu case, I guess, the brokerage system is not so much technologically mediated, in the sense that you won’t see a lot of brokers. There are a few agencies, of course, in Mogadishu which act like normal – or what could I say? Normal might not be the right word – but the usual real estate agencies that you see in other countries. But when it comes to the brokers – the land brokers, we’re talking about – they don’t use the social media so much in the case of Mogadishu. I don’t know the reasons for that, but it’s not a platform that they commonly use. The other thing regarding the gender issues of land brokerage in Mogadishu, there is not, again, many female brokers in Mogadishu. They tend to be mostly under-50 male, not necessarily all young, like it comes across in other cities. The age – in Mogadishu brokers tend to be not age -specific, like all young, very young – it’s between anywhere from 20 to 50, or even more.

Tom Goodfellow So I think it’s interesting, because so much is digitally mediated in Somalia, that brokerage doesn’t seem to have gone online in the same way. My sense was in Kampala, that’s happening a bit more. But maybe on the gender issue, it’s that this enables women to sell and buy land more, rather than to become brokers themselves, or perhaps they’re doing both. Some reflections from Kampala would be interesting there.

Muhamed Lunyago Yeah, you know, women joining the land market as brokers is two-way. First, given the difficulties many of them have been facing in buying land or selling land and being targets of people who engage in land fraud and all sorts of stuff, so many of them, we had an interview with one woman who heads an organisation, a company called Fabulous Homes that buys land, that collects a number of women, they collect money across the year, then later they buy land and then share the acquired land with those different people and sometimes go ahead to build on that kind of land. And many of them have joined because of such kind of difficulties to selling and buying. Others have joined because of the other challenge, like unemployment. Many women are unemployed and then they are in the city, they have to survive. And they see this as the window through which they can come and then find a living. You know, because you can wake up one morning, design a poster, put your phone number and your name and put “land broker” and then put it there. And if you have nothing to do and it will cost you something like 2000 Ugandan shillings, which is less than a dollar and you have it, you easily join the market. So it’s two-way. Also, I think the internet has tried to help a bit because initially it would be hard for a number of women to have access to information on land which is available for sale in different places and different locations. Given that a majority or maybe a big number of women are engaged so much in doing domestic work or even those that are involved in informal kind of employment or even formal, after leaving work, you’re going home, you have to go and do the domestic work, some kind of social reproduction work that is waiting for you there. So you may not have enough time to go and socialise and interact with people that may have such kind of information. But with social media, if you are at your workplace, you could get up the internet and then you could find a plot of land that is being sold in a place that you like and you could easily have access.

Tom Goodfellow There have been so many interesting issues raised here. I think we’re running out of time. I would just, as we wrap up, in this context, this picture you painted in both cities really of a quite rapidly changing situation, where brokers have become really important, they’re starting at least in Kampala to perhaps become more formalised. We’re seeing the role of digital transformation in that context as well. There are varying levels of trust, there are different categories, but maybe there’s a sense of organisation and movement towards formalisation. So I just wondered what you think, to wrap up, the state should be doing. If you had some advice to make sure that brokerage worked as well as possible for the wider city population, what might that be? Any final reflections there really on what the relationship between brokers and the state and forms of regulation might look like going forward?

Eria Serwajja From our work, for ACRC in particular, the project that we sort of tried to propose moving forward, one way would be to have the brokers, you know, have a very strong association. It helps them, one, to also put their demands across to the state if they are within a strong association. Number two is that the trust goes up when you have this strong association. It means that the members that do anything contrary, including fraud and stuff like that, can be sanctioned or even expelled from the association, meaning that trust goes up within the local communities and they will be in business. Number three is that the issue with the brokers in our country has often been around many of them getting into acts of fraud, not being known by the state. So through the real estate bill being formally recognised, it gives them special status and recognition and they can sit on the table with this government and say, this is the direction where things should go. And therefore, you have a voice that you can use to advocate for whatever interests that you have.

Tom Goodfellow It sounds like things are moving in a positive direction. I guess the issue is really more around regulating the activities of those special buyers and on wider issues around illicit finance and money laundering and how that inflates the land market, rather than the brokers themselves. I mean, there are ways in which maybe the brokers can exacerbate some of the problems around inflated land prices and so on. But the fundamental problem lies somewhere else, I guess, and brokers themselves just want to be able to have a degree of transparency and formalisation, it sounds like.

Abdifatah Tahir Yeah, I think formalisation would be good, but in a limited sense, especially as it regards maybe providing a framework, a legislative framework within which maybe brokers can register themselves and minimise the sort of, somebody just coming, waking up in the morning, as Muhamed was saying, just somebody waking up in the morning and becoming a broker the next day without having maybe sufficient knowledge about how the market works and all of that. So I think in that regard, it would be nice to have some sort of regulation. But again, on the same note, I would probably be a bit concerned about the state having too much role in it, in the sense that the minute you try to regulate things like corruption through putting in place legislation that look at how brokers are making an investment whose source is not clear, that minute, then you create a whole sort of other problems, like a capital flight from the country where people then invest their money, their illicitly gained money in other countries because they know you will find out through the brokers, the regulations imposed on the brokers and all of that. So it creates another sort of a problem which negatively impacts, not only the market, but the country, but the employability of people, all of these sorts of problems. I would be very careful about very strict formal regulations.

Tom Goodfellow And those are obviously really important trade-offs in a country like Somalia.

Abdifatah Tahir Yeah, maybe one more thing. Self -regulation as well would be very important in conditions of fragility like Somalia, where they state if you give them all the teeth they need, industries like this might be negatively affected. So self -regulation, again, is another thing which in combination with formal regulation would work well for contexts like Somalia.

Tom Goodfellow It sounds like a degree of that self-regulation is starting to happen in Kampala. Muhamed, I’ll give you the final word.

Muhamed Lunyago Well, yeah, I think I will not differ so much. I think, like Abdi and Eria have been saying, the state providing a framework within which brokers can be organised, not necessarily talking about regulation in itself, but also organisation. So if they are organised, perhaps most especially by themselves as brokers, maybe they have a union or an association and stuff like that, they could easily try to deal with the many problems that paint a bad image of themselves. Because their work is important, but the other things that go through like fraud and others make their work quite problematic. But also, regulation of brokers in isolation may not solve the problem because the problem is way bigger than brokerage itself. So alongside trying to provide a framework to organise and regulate brokers, we have to deal with the other problems, like how people are getting the huge sums of money. It may not necessarily be determining the price of a particular piece of land, but trying to find out who owns this very expensive plot of land. And what’s their source of income? What does this mean to these kinds of people? So the whole idea of commodifying land is one of the problems that we have. If we could think of land not as a commodity that should hold our money and then think otherwise, the other values that come with land, it could be something very important.

Tom Goodfellow Excellent. I think that’s a really good note to end on. Thank you, Muhamed. Thank you, Abdi. Thank you, Eria, so much. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. For listeners who are interested in these issues, please do check out our crosscutting report on land and connectivity in six cities, which is on the African Cities Research Consortium website, and also the individual city reports as well, which might have more information on this. So thanks for joining us and goodbye.

Outro You have been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Intro [00:00:07] Welcome to the African Cities podcast.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:00:18] Good morning from Lagos. My name is Ismail Ibraheem, I’m the uptake director for ACRC and former uptake lead for Lagos. My day job is a professor of Communication and Journalism Studies, and I have in the studio today three interesting and very important researchers who have been engaged in the research on housing in Lagos. This morning, Lagos is bright and sunny. And before we go into the conversation, I’m going to ask each of my guests to introduce themselves, what they do, the sort of research they’ve been engaging in the past couple of months, and then to tell us, how Lagos is looking like from the part of Lagos they are in, just to give us a sense of the very diverse nature of Lagos. So, the first person I want to call is, Mr Deji Akinpelu.

Deji Akinpelu [00:01:17] Okay. Good morning. Thanks for having me. My name is Deji Akinpelu, co-founder, Rethinking Cities. Rethinking Cities is an advocacy group on urban development issues. And, right here in the city of Lagos, our advocacy pretty much also centres around issues around affordable housing, housing in the city of Lagos, particularly with a focus on housing provision for urban poor. We’ve been part of this research for a couple of months, and I’m pretty much excited to be here at this moment to discuss the issues for that. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:01:58] Thank you so much, Deji. Okay, can I ask Lookman Oshodi to introduce himself?

Lookman Oshodi [00:02:06] Yeah. Thank you. Good morning again, everyone. Lookman Oshodi is my name. I work with Arctic Infrastructure as the project director. We are based in Surulere and Surulere is looking bright this morning. I mean, in that part of Lagos. So everything is calm, and, of course, the weather looks very bright and very inviting. At Arctic Infrastructure, we look at climate- resilient infrastructure, that could make urban system to function efficiently and effectively. And we work along the value chain of the urban system. And that includes housing and basic support infrastructure, such as transportation, water, sanitation, energy and any other thing that could make the urban system work effectively for the people residing in that urban system. So for us we often work with quite a number of government agencies and of course the private sector and development partner in the area of housing for the people of Lagos. So in the past, we have worked with the Lagos State Ministry of Housing and [inaudible] to develop a policy on housing, affordable housing development fund for the city of Lagos. And of course, in the past, we have equally worked on the social housing policy for Lagos State. Of course we have equally did a market survey on how housing impacted the vulnerable communities in different parts of Lagos. And of course, we have been involved in different development plans on housing and basic infrastructure for the residents of Lagos in the past few years. And currently, we are equally supporting the Lagos State government on the typology of housing development in Lagos Island, an area of Lagos State. So, quite a number of actions that we have done in the past, and we hope to be part of this system in the future. So glad to be part of this discussion. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:04:29] Thank you so much Lookman. Over to you Basirat.

Basirat Oyalowo [00:04:33] Hey, everyone. Good to be here. I’m Basirat Oyalowo, I’m a senior lecturer in real estate, and I am the housing domain leader on the ACRC Lagos project. My research has evolved around housing studies in general, and focusing on Lagos, where I grew up, and worked and lived most of my adult life. It’s been interesting looking at the challenges around housing affordability, housing accessibility and, over the years, I’ve also delved into the sustainability aspect of things as far as housing justice is concerned. And, in the last couple of years, I’ve been more and more involved in working at the community level in terms of promoting resilience and advocacy for community-centred interventions in the housing sector, as well as end-user-driven approaches to housing provision, particularly through cooperative societies. Through this, I have worked with the Federal Mortgage Bank of Nigeria in trying to promote accessible housing finance for the informal sector in Lagos, as well as several community resilience action mapping. So, the direction is to look at housing as a composite social and economic good, rather than just as financial products. And, this has driven my research in the last couple of years. It’s good to be on this podcast. It’s always instructive speaking about housing in Lagos, because this is an endemic issue, that has a long standing and there’s a lot to talk about here. So it’s good to be here. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:06:51] Thank you very much, Basirat. That’s interesting. I’m actually looking forward to robust discussion around housing issues in Lagos. And I have in the room a cocktail of experts, Basirat is an academic researcher, Deji is a community/media activitist. And we have in Lookman a practitioner. We are all going to be coming into this conversation with different perspectives. If I can start with you Basirat, as the lead for housing research in ACRC Lagos, what are the key outcomes of the Lagos housing ACRC research?

Basirat Oyalowo [00:07:28] Thank you. The key outcomes – I can address this in two ways. I can look at the outcomes that emerged to confirm existing knowledge that is out there about the lack of enough newbuild housing in Lagos, the fact that the population explosion is high and the urbanisation trend is also high. There’s high population density – in some parts, over 8,000 people per square kilometre – that is over 40 times Nigeria’s average. And with the increasing influx of people into the city, Lagos does not have the capacity to produce enough new housing for its ever-expanding population and also the low quality of existing abodes is something that also came up quite clearly in the research. 66% of Lagos population live in informal settlements. And here we are talking about the quality of the unit housing itself and the quality of the neighbourhoods. We do not have enough facilities, neighbourhood facilities and services to actually help people enjoy a good standard of living in their city. But apart from this, and also compounding these issues to make it more complex, is the vulnerability of Lagos to flooding. 18% of the city as we know it is prone to flooding. The city is low- lying, it suffers from flooding from so many angles. But there is not enough attention being paid to making the city climate-resilient, both at the community level and at the city level. In addition, we have the crisis in the rental sector, the lack of adequate protection for gendered housing access. And of course, the macro- economic environment – that’s conditions, housing construction costs, disposable incomes and the lack of a social network for accessing housing – these are the critical issues that the research brought up. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:09:53] Thank you so much, Basirat. Lagos is a city of contrasts, with many residents, both in rich … many residents in different neighbourhoods, facing the risk of eviction, maybe sometimes from government, sometimes from private owners of housing. Deji, I know you’ve dealt with a number of issues around evictions in different communities in Lagos. What can we learn from alternative approaches to housing from your own experience?

Deji Akinpelu [00:10:27] Yeah. The fact that you have stated is true. It’s very much rampant in the city of Lagos for us to have cases of forced evictions across the city. This remained very rampant up to last year. For instance, the forceful eviction of people of Oworonshoki last year. So this also brings to the fore the need for us to critically have these discussions, to see what kind of answers, solutions, we have to make the city become more inclusive. There’s a big test for property, housing development for the high income group. There’s no strategic plan or policies to address the issues of urban poor, in terms of housing. So this is where this conversation is very, very important. And, having this conversation, pretty much what we have done is to also engage well with communities to seek alternatives, for how these housing issues can be addressed. How can housing provision be made for these people? What kind of ideas they have in their head, in terms of, okay, this is how our housing situation can be addressed. Pretty much like a bottom-to-top approach. And over the years, the ideas playing around centres around the issue of, okay, how can we have a 50/50 win-win solution? Oh, are we gonna do, like, pooling? How do we give tenure to these people to develop their land the right time? How can the land be shared between government and the people, building up an [inaudible] land trust system, etc, etc. there are several ideas, which I think we can probably get into later. Thanks.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:12:43] Thank you very much Deji. Lookman, as a practitioner, and using the climate action framework, what can we learn from practice in terms of alternative approaches to housing?

Lookman Oshodi [00:12:56] Yeah, thank you. When we look at the issue of alternative approaches to housing, a few questions will come to mind. One will be, what kind of alternative are we looking at and what are the existing approaches that we have in the system that deliver housing to the people of Lagos? So in the area of existing programmes and of course, the policies and pricing of those programmes, and we know that in Lagos, a substantial number of housing that are coming to the market are privately delivered, whether at the level of high income, medium income or even at low income. Most of these houses are privately delivered, it’s like a self-help, developer housing system. And so far, to change that narrative, the government, on its part, has come up with a Lagos homes system. That’s a rent-to-own approach and of course a home ownership approach. But it is clear that these models are not enough to meet the housing needs for the people of Lagos. And also, it is clear that to really transform the city of Lagos, because when it comes to delivery of housing, housing has always been there. And of course, we know that the deficit is about more than 2 million housing units that are needed in the city. So, where we have this precarious need is on the low-income part, but where many of them are in the form of informal and slum settlements across the city. We are looking to really drive that alternative approaches to housing. Funding is very critical. Without the funding that alternative may not be able to come to the table. And, apart from funding, what kind of materials that we have that can actually drive climate-resilient housing, that we are looking for that could lead us into a discussion around the alternative. But, as we know, while we are dealing with the issue of adequacy, the city is also at the risk of climate change impact risk from time to time. This needs to be factored in when we are discussing the alternative [inaudible]. So in looking at this alternative, access to land is very key. Building the materials that will drive that alternative discussion is really key. Funding is very key. And skills that are available to drive this housing to its logical delivery process is very key. So quite a number of options have been put to the government from the private sector for the government to try. And, some of them is in the area of design, design that will accommodate local building materials and of course, to some extent foreign building materials as well. And of course, design that could reduce the input of cement into the production of housing. So that discussion is equally ongoing. Of course, to bring that alternative to the table, I mention the issue of skill. So the skill at different levels of housing production, maybe at the artisanal level, at the medium-scale level, and at the professional level, there is a need for skill retooling to understand the concept of affordable housing in a larger city like Lagos. Housing should not at all time be a product of commerce or a product of profit. Definitely there should be social aspect. There should be a community impact aspect. So that skill retooling to really guide every participant in the housing production process into that direction, that skill retooling is necessary. And to drive that skill retooling, the housing fund that has been proposed for Lagos State Government for implementation has really addressed that skill retuning. Certain provision has been made to ensure that the different categories of housing production, strata, they are part of this housing retooling system. So quite a number of interwoven approaches that can bring alternative housing to the market. But most importantly is that we need to look at the outlook of the city of Lagos itself. Just like Dr Oyalowo mentioned earlier, the city is becoming congested. And of course, that the number of housing is becoming inadequate to host the number of population that we have. And if you look at the spread of the city, you can see that the city is low rise. So when you are having a socially burgeoning population, it is clear that that kind of structure of the city cannot accommodate that population. So that means alternative housing needs to come into play. And what we are looking is something of a high rise structure that can dignify and of course, accommodate a significant large number of Lagos population. So when we are looking at alternative approach, we should equally look at the city context itself, a city context, a need to change from the low-rise structure we are dealing with to something high-rise structure. So those are the types of platform that we are dealing with at this time.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:19:01] Thank you very much Lookman for those insights. I think within what you have said, yourself and Deji, and within the discourse on those approaches to housing in Lagos, some themes are actually coming up, such ascooperative housing, land pooling, resilience building, legislative reforms. Basirat, what is coming out from your research in terms of alternative approaches to housing.

Basirat Oyalowo [00:19:29] Yeah. Thank you very much. What is actually coming out complements, what Lookman and Deji been talking about. And in addition to some issues that I would also like to raise very quickly is the fact that when we are looking at increasing the housing stock in Lagos and we’re looking at that direction, we have to recognise the fact that one size cannot fit all. We cannot anchor housing provision in Lagos to one singular method, maybe, to one singular operator, whether it’s the government or the private sector. We have to recognise the diversity of the housing need and the fact that we have to look at the network of suppliers. And this is where the cooperative sector comes in. Already, Lagos has several thousands of cooperatives registered, close to 2,500 cooperatives are actually registered to operate in Lagos State. And cooperative societies, because they are social and they are societies that come together to address social and economic needs of their members, have been very active in housing finance for their members. They provide loans to help people pay for their rent, they provide loans to help people buy land, they provide loans to help people complete their housing. They provide loans to help people expand their housing. So already they are filling the gaps that the formal sector, through mortgages, and the government, through the construction of public housing, has not been able to fill. So they are, instead of, ready organisations, so to say, that should be more involved, should be more visible, should be more supported in housing accessibility in the city, particularly the fact that over the years, in recognising the housing need of their members, some of them have gone into provision of land, in terms of buying land in bulk from mostly the informal sector. And then, I mean, their members buy into this land so that they can then construct. But they have been bedevilled by the fact that they are not housing experts, so they are not also able to expand on what they can offer. This requires the fact that there’s a need to come together, in bringing the formal sector together with government and the cooperative societies, to support and improve the activities of cooperative societies as the agents of the housing needs of their members. That is something that we need to be more intentional about in new housing provision. Then, on the other hand, there is the issue of resilience. We find that there is not enough policy attention being paid to future-proofing housing in Lagos in terms of the construction and also even in protecting existing settlements, as we just talked about, evictions, demolitions and all of that. So here we have a context problem. We do not have enough housing. What we have, they are under the threat of flood risk, they are under the threat of evictions and demolitions due to any number of reasons. In this case, they are also actors, such as the community development associations, the residents associations, the landlords associations. All of these people come together to address low-level problems within their communities, ranging from security to provision of drainages at very low level to provision of street lights, provision of gates to secure the community, and low-level activities that they can afford to do. So there is a need to scale up these activities to have like a framework that we enhance what is already there, that is already appreciated by the community, that is already in operation, without necessarily bringing in laws that would not be implemented. We have several laws that are not yet implemented. We have several laws that, as Lookman has been saying, that are in the offing that need to be passed and need to be implemented. So looking at putting all this together, we can then start to scratch the surface of solving the housing challenges in the city. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:24:26] Thank you very much. We have to be intentional in addressing the housing challenge in Lagos. Definitely, because Lagos has a population of more than 25 million, and there is no way that the housing provision we have can meet the demand for housing in Lagos. Interestingly, the Lagos State Government has been very, very strong in terms of planning. Recently, it announced its Strategic Development Plan 2020 to 2052. So what are the main highlights as far as housing is concerned in Lagos from this strategic plan? Again, I will start from Lookman.

Lookman Oshodi [00:25:04] Yes. The main highlights from the development plan. Quite a number of plan which was quite a departure from what we used to have in the past. In the past, before this particular development plan, there was a target of reducing the number of slums in the city, at about the rate of 5% per annum. And that was not realised. So the new development plan hinges on using some of the state instrument, especially the Lagos HOMS and of course, Lagos HOMS to drive a new development plan. And of course, a rent-to-own approach will still continue. And of course, a new approach has been introduced, which is mixed-income housing. So all this, they are very interesting developments, when it comes to development plan for any city. But the issue will be how ready, what are the structure on the ground to drive the implementation of this provision in the development plan. Structurally, which one is the leading agency that will lead this implementation? And of course, from the mandate of different agencies, we have a Ministry of Housing that will lead this process. But the immediate question is whether the Ministry of Housing is well equipped in terms of manpower, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of what it takes to drive delivery of this provision of these plans? So, one thing is to have the plans very well elaborated, and the other thing is to get it delivered. So, apart from the Ministry of Housing, there are quite a number of institutions that are clearly, in that stream of delivery on the provisions of the plan, which include the Lagos State Urban Renewal Agency that deals with the different slums and the informal settlement, and of course, Lagos State and Ministry of Physical Planning and Urban Development will equally play a role. So I’m saying that in terms of institutional, to really drive this process, is very key, the structure we have on ground, they need to be retooled to be able to drive the provisions of the development plans. Again, apart from the institutions, I look at the investment that needs to come onto play to drive the provision, because the aspect of a PPP, that’s a development I plan mentioned. And that has to do with the private sector bringing in the investment into the sector. And if we look at the prevailing economic situation, as at today, where the reference currency, which is a dollar, keep at least being valued more than our local currency of Naira. So this is a shrinking investment in that regard. And this will affect the implementation of that PPP part, that development plan I talked about. And of course, and this we foresee that can possibly have some long-term effects. Certainly there is a stronger, potentially a provision to really augment some of the areas that the private sector will be lacking. And importantly for the state as it is, it is that the funding framework that has been put in place, this, present financial issue that we have in the country presents a good opportunity for the state to take it head on, in terms of implementing the provisions of this affordable housing. And it is closely connected to the provisions that we have in the development plan, because it is connected to the issue of mixed-income housing. It is connected to the issue of PPP. It is connected to the issue of a rent-to-own model. So, I see this plan as a fairly robust one, but the structure to get it implemented, that is one thing that the government and the private sector need to work collaboratively to get it delivered.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:29:48] Thank you very much, Lookman. My next question goes to Deji now. One of the key criticisms against the Lagos State Development Plan is the fact that it is more elitist. It is elitist, leaving behind most of the majority of Lagosians that live in informal settlements. So in your own view, what are the low hanging fruits from the plan that can have immediate impact for low-income residents of Lagos?

Deji Akinpelu [00:30:20] Yeah. You’re very correct in your analysis in terms of the plans sound elitist. Even though I would just say some of the plans… the way I would also put it is that there’s no detailed commitment in terms of, okay, the low-income groups, how we want to ensure that. so the concept of mixed-income housing, for instance, that you’re find in development, so ways in which mixed income, that means different levels of income. So part of it should probably reflect low-income groups being able to have access to housing. But as the discussions proves or as anlaysis usually goes, all these things are usually very much lost and the plans look elitist. But where the plans were actually gotten from, from consultants, such as who originally wrote about this concept, the intention was also to have low-income groups enabled to participate. So when we talk about cooperative housing, for instance, cooperative association of low-income groups should also be prioritised. That’s what we are talking about. So we’re not just talking about cooperative societies of those high-income groups or organisations that are oil workers, etc, etc. So you are very correct. It seems that the documents really doesn’t capture in detail, or does not in detail focus on this group of people that is pretty much our own concern. So when you say the low hanging fruit, I think for Mr Oshodi, it’s a major point in terms of finance. Financing is very, very key. And, I think the low hanging fruit to create that affordable social housing [inaudible] is very, very key for us to pull together, begin to draw resources. You know, there was a former governor and a former minister who said that government cannot deliver housing below market price. That is not true. With the instrumentality of creative financing, you can get funding, you can get support to provide such housing. So we automatically reduce cost. So in the area of funding is something that we have to create a platform for and begin to utilise. Then the next step would be to identify low-income cooperative groups and begin to work with them. Let us allocate land to them in different areas and let them begin to embark on housing development projects. There are low-income groups that we work with that are already trying to embark on housing projects within and outside the city of Lagos. So part of also the need or what needs to be set up, is we need to begin to think of professional services that will come at a pro bono system or support system. So finance, technical team, allocation of plan, identification of this group of people that we want. So affordable housing for who? Let us define those groups of people. You know, I think some of the documents I’ve read, times two of the minimum wage – well, these are the group of people that we want to provide that social housing for. So that’s where I think the low hanging fruit exist, and for communities like Oworonshoki that was recently forcefully evicted, they are perfect for piloting some of these mixed-income housing ideas, and some of the things that Dr Basirat has spoken of too. So recent places where we’ve had evictions, we can pilot some of these ideas in these areas, whereby the community can have a certain portion of the land, and government can take another portion of the land, for infrastructural development, [inaudible] etc, while the other parts of the land can be used for social housing development for the people, on that different arrangement and land ownership types and land tenure systems. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:34:55] Thank you so much, Deji. Basirat, housing issues in Lagos, have been as old as Lagos itself. Lagos has been the commercial nerve centre of the country, as well as perhaps the commercial nerve centre for West Africa. But there have been different approaches in the past. Can you take us to previous housing delivery provision approaches and practices that have made some impact that you think should be expanded?

Basirat Oyalowo [00:35:22] Thank you very much for that. I think looking at what has happened in the past, that we should also be reinforcing in the present time, one can easily pick on the government side of things in the provision of public housing. Over the years, the government of Lagos, as with other governments in Nigeria… they’ve gone into several public housing schemes and all of that. And we see the houses coming up, but we do not know who these houses are allocated to. So in the past where we had the Jakande housing scheme, which was directly targeted, you know, at the civil servants, I think [inaudible] this was quite strong and these estates currently house several thousands of households in the city, and they are still existing. The conditions are poor now, no doubt about it. But the fact is that the government was able to build housing and then allocate to a specific designated group of people. And so this is what has been missing in public housing delivery in Nigeria, in particular, the fact that the government builds but we don’t know who gets allocated. And ever so often we have this sense that the allocation of new housing becomes a political tool to reward acolytes and party members. So here we can learn from the past. We can also learn from the Lagos home scheme during the Fashola administration, where allocation was done by balloting. Through my research, I’ve actually met quite a few number of people that attest to the fact that they were surprised to get allocated this housing, that they were not even lobbying for it, it just because the process of balloting was quite even and seems quite fair compared to what we have. So the issue around public housing is not about the fact that they don’t know how to build, its not that they don’t know how to build at low cost, its the fact that when these houses are built, they don’t go to the right people. So they need to target who new housing is meant for and to ensure that they can access, they can be allocated fairly. That is something that we need to improve upon. And so just as Deji was saying, the issues around low-income people also fits in with the cooperative sector in the fact that there are cooperative societies that are being formed by people in the informal sector and they are providing loans to their members. They keep records. They have a credit profiling that they do in their own way. And so these kinds of activities need to be recognised and need to be scaled up. If we do not have credit rules that cater for the informal sector and the low-income people, then we can turn to those that have the records. We have the property societies, they have the records, they know the lending history. They know the paper history of their members. So this can be pulled into a sort of housing finance structure that will be equitable and accessible by the vulnerable people. Also, looking at the fact that we have – and I keep on talking about what we have that’s existing, because it is easier to work with what is existing than creating new structures – so where we have already community-centred associations, we have youth groups, we have people working for the community already, we need to also support them. We need to also recognise them. We need to also fix them into the formal framework of things. So here the issues around resilience is important, issues around people collecting own data to support government investment for infrastructure is also critical. So I think that in learning from the past we need to look at these aspects of housing provision, aspects of protecting existing communities that have worked. And then we need to ensure that they are encased in the new policy directions that we are looking at, particularly, the Lagos State strategic development policy, which is the most recent and extant policy on Lagos as it is.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:40:36] Thank you very much Basirat. Just the last words, maybe if I can just start from you, what do you think Lagos should do or not do in the short to medium term in the housing sector, in the context of forced evictions, commercialisation of housing, clientelism in housing location? Basirat, just last words.

Basirat Oyalowo [00:40:59] Okay. Last words. Lagos must adopt a social… housing provision. There is no doubt that housing provision is an economic activity or is an activity that has enormous economic potential, especially when we are looking at, we realise this side of things, but the fact of the matter is that more and more of Lagos residents are in the low income bracket that needs a social framework for them to access housing and more of its existing communities require protection, require upgrade. Where we have a more significant proportion in the low-income sector, in the informal sector, it is clear that we have involve a more social approach to housing provision and housing accessibility and housing protection. So that is something that Lagos must do. What Lagos most not do in the short to medium term is to decimate what it already has. There are already existing settlements, the people are providing some level of infrastructure for themselves out of pocket, because the government has not been able to provide the drainages, the waste management, the water supply, electricity supply, security, and all of this, the government has not been able to provide it at 100%, and the people have come together to address some of these needs. So we need to also pay attention to existing settlements to ensure that we do not destroy these existing settlements, we do not leave eviction, even private sector focused or private sector led evictions. Lagos must ensure that these cease to happen through providing alternatives to disputes resolutions, and providing a kind of legitimacy for these actions. So a more socially engaged approach to housing provision, housing protection, neighbourhood facilities, infrastructure provision is what is required in Lagos, drawing on the richness of its people’s readiness to also use their own social capital,who also had to do improvement of their settlement. So this is the direction that Lagos should go in the next couple of years. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:43:41] Thank you very much. Lookman, last words: forced evictions, housing commercialisation, clientelism in Lagos, housing allocation. What should Lagos do out what should it not do in the short term and medium term?

Lookman Oshodi [00:43:57] Okay. Thank you. I think, Lagos needs to really recalibrate the vision of the city in the African model mega city. The question is, oh, can we really achieve this vision, and if we want to achieve this vision, how do we get there? So there is need to reappraise that vision and recalibrate the methods of achieving that vision. Now, having said that, I think Lagos needs to equally look at what kind of city, sustainable city, do we want to give the people who are there currently and the people who will be coming into this city in the nearest official distance official. And of course, that will equally lead to the question what kind of policies that we have on ground, are our policies adequate? I can see the need for a Lagos State housing policy, of having a housing policy to be in place to guide the new flow of housing in this city. Currently, as I mentioned earlier, the city is currently driven by self-help housing system in major parts of the city. And if anyone wants to have a sustainable city in that regard, I do not think that is the way to go, because most of this self help at first, they give the city the kind of outlook we’ve seen and of course they do not dignify the residents of the city. So the city or the Lagos State governments need to be very cohesive in this approach of delivering housing to the people. One is to define the vision of the city. One is to define whether the city should remain in this condition. And, of course, if it needs to improve, all this can be put in place by the relevant policies that I talk about, keep in mind that in the city system, housing constitutes more than 60% of the land use. So that means that housing is critical. So that means that there must be that cohesive approach. Then again, is that there are two or about three channels of housing, of assessing the housing ladder in the city. One is the self-help and the other ones are the ones put in place by the government, in terms of rent-to- own and their homeownership and mortgage scheme. And of course, a different, organised private sector who are dealing with a different housing delivery. So all these are pushes that are not adequate. So there is a need for government to diversify a method of assessing housing for the people of Lagos State. There is nothing wrong if we have up to like 15 different channels for people to access housing cooperative, social housing, resettlement housing, different channels need to come on too. And that should be the product of housing policy for Lagos State. Then I see that in the transformation aspect, first, housing and low rise city is not adequate as it is. And in the future, I do not see that as being adequate. But how will the vulnerable group of people become part of authentic transformation of the city? So that should be a key priority for Lagos State government in the short and in the medium term. So, and that is where all this concept of mixed income, social housing cooperative housing, that is where all these concepts come in, in the transformation of Lagos from low rise to a high rise city. So I will say, and then going forward, what Lagos should not do. Forced eviction has never resolved a housing issue in any sustainable city, has never been the solution. So, collaboration, participation, inclusionary approach – these should be the key words that Lagos State government should adopt in making their housing more diversified for people. So I would suggest that recalibrating the vision of the city is very key. Different policies that need to be put in place, especially [inaudible] the Lagos State housing policy, the affordable housing development policy, the implementation of that is very key. This transformation of the city needs to start as quick as possible because what we have now is currently inadequate in terms of the structure of the city to accommodate a large number of population. So that’s a transformation needs to start, but that transformation needs to be inclusive, in terms of bringing the people who are vulnerable, the people who are the lowest ladder of society, need to bring them on board without excluding them from the new Lagos that will emerge. And that will equally bring into the idea of having Lagos modern city plan that’s been developed in different parts of the city. All this needs to come together as a cohesive document that will lead to the transformation of Lagos. So again, lastly, Lagos should do away with the issue of forced eviction, displacement. That system, that strategy has been part of Lagos as far back as the 70s. And as a city today, it has not transformed Lagos into one of the high ranking, sustainable city in the world. It has not yet transformed to better living conditions for majority of residents of Lagos. So if a data approach or data method has been used for a very long time, and it has not really produced the desired result, I think it is high time that there is need to change the strategy of delivering housing. So displacement, forced eviction, all those things should not to be part of housing system in Lagos. I understand that replacement of housing will happen because of the current structure of the city. But forced eviction should not that be the process.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:50:30] Thank you very much. Lookman. Deji, I don’t know whether you also have one or two things to say?

Deji Akinpelu [00:50:36] Yeah, they’ve pretty much said it all, but I would like to say here that, it is very important that the government stop in the long or short term to stop using the instrumentality of city master plans or city plans for the exploitation of the vulnerable groups. What we have seen as a trend is that, we have different… all our city masterplan, social [inaudible] masterplan, [inaudible] masterplan. They don’t have any inclusive approach, for housing, for the vulnerable groups. Those documents, the ones that have been approved and the ones that are still being reviewed, clearly they are taking advantage of even climatic issues such as drainage systems, floodprone areas, that take this climate change issues and environmental issues. They are using as an advantage to have development plans that will pull these people from wherever they are living right now, in as much as, we need to pretty much consider environmental safety of the people, it is very much important that the government puts at the forefront a plan, policies and practices, that considers the need of vulnerable groups by strategically having projects that clearly debunk the overriding idea that, for instance, in the city of Lagos, that property is the best form of investment. So housing is very expensive, first of all, psychologically in Lagos, before it is first expensive, practically in Lagos. So in the heads of the people, it is already expensive, without even viewing. And that has been the overriding thinking in the city and the government too has been a collaborator in making that idea, that thinking, to be very valued. We see government agencies like Lagos State Development, Property Development Agency becoming competitors in the private space, very highly commercial. The LSDPC clearly is a very highly commercial entity. Which shouldn’t be. LSDPC is being strengthened to compete in the private sector, while a government agency like LASURA that should meet the need of the vulnerable group, is being weakened on a daily basis. The agency strides is very slow, is on a slow speed. The relevance of its proposals and its budget team, it does not speak to the commitment the government should have in terms of vulnerable groups. So these inconsistencies are the things that, we pretty much need to address, taking more decisive steps. Agents like New Towns Development Authority should be at the forefront of the concept of mixed-income housing, as stated in the development plan of the city. So that should be their own major concern. So our attention should be on agencies. Government agencies like LASURA, New Towns Development Authority should be there to do “urban renewal”, quote and unquote, for these vulnerable groups. I think I’ll just stop there. Thank you.

Ismail Ibraheem [00:54:06] Thank you so much Deji. We’ve been listening to very useful insights from the incredible team on housing research in Lagos. Thank you so much. Within the past almost one hour, we’ve been looking at the issues that underpin housing in Lagos: issues of inclusion, vision of development, issues of development leaving behind the vast majority of people that are vulnerable in Lagos. Thank you so much, Mr Deji Akinpelu, Dr Basirat Oyalowo as well as Lookman Oshodi. Until we come your way next time, we say bye from all of us, from the Lagos ACRC team. Thank you.

Outro [00:54:50] You have been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Welcome to the African Cities podcast. I am Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael, a postdoctoral researcher at the African Cities Research Consortium. Today, we have the privilege of delving into the intricacies of transformational potentials and limitations of coalitions with Doctor Lalitha Kamath. This podcast interview is part of a mini podcast series produced on urban reform coalitions. It’s my honour and pleasure to be joined today by Dr Lalitha Kamath, an associate professor at the School of Habitat Studies, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai, India. Lalitha is an urbanist whose research interests focus on the political, economic, social planning and governance dimensions of urbanisation. She is particularly interested in learning from and theorising everyday practices, and bridging academic and pedagogic and practitioner networks within India and across the global South. She has published a lot, but one of the most interesting, publications of her that will be the foundation for this conversation is her recent article commentary in Area Development and Policy journal: ‘Coalitions and urban transformation: contributions and limits’. Welcome, Lalitha.

Lalitha Kamath Thank you so much, Ezana, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Thank you very much. Just to kickstart our conversation. Please briefly walk us through what led you to be interested in urban reform coalitions, along your research and activist journey. What makes you interested on the topic of coalitions?

Lalitha Kamath That’s actually a really interesting question. And looking back, I realise that my interest in urban reform coalitions started quite early, in fact, with my PhD journey, which is many years ago now. I did my PhD in the US, from Rutgers University, and when I was applying to do my PhD, I was particularly interested in the emergence of this idea of governance coalitions that was emerging in India at the time. The particular coalition I was focused on was studying the Bangalore Agenda Task Force in Bangalore. So it was basically a coalition of corporate agents, largely, with some focus on bringing a greater involvement of citizens. And this was a partnership with different government agencies in the city of Bangalore focused on improving the quality of life – at least that was the rhetoric of the partnership. And this was the time period of 1999 to 2004. So, in fact, a very different moment in India’s life, and Indian cities as well. So this was really the starting point, I would say, of my academic interest in coalitions – in how they work, what kind of animal they are. And this was a particular kind of governing coalition, because it focused very much on the idea of corporate actors getting involved very squarely in city governance. And with this idea that the corporate sector knows better than most how to improve Indian city governance. And so this was I think, as I said, a rather different kind of a coalition. And I spent several years doing my PhD and talking to a number of different actors who were part of this coalition in different ways, impacted by it. And I think the afterlife of it has been quite substantial. But if I look back and I see then my following the trajectory after my PhD, I returned to India. And I was working in Bangalore with a small start-up, a research collaborative. This was a collaborative of practitioners and researchers, and one of the first projects that we worked on was one on, it was a comparative Bangalore Chennai research project looking at collective action. And this was again, another project that looked very much at how different civil society actors, in fact, came together, with some kind of collective transformation in mind usually, so this in fact focused much more at the neighbourhood scale. Whereas the former, my PhD project, was much more at the city scale. So the neighbourhood scale level partnerships that I looked at and the kind of coalitions that formed, the kind of ways in which they liaised with the city government and different government agencies was again, I think, a very different kind of insight into this process of collective action and the larger growing interest in citizen participation in, urban governance. In fact, this became a much larger project and ended up as an edited volume, that I was one of the co-editors for. And it was called, quite grandly, “Participolis: Consent and contention in neoliberal urban India”. One of the interesting things that emerged is that there were many gains from these different coalitions, incredible transformations, I think, at multiple scales. But a lot of these weren’t particularly inclusive. And so in some ways, this work triggered my future interest in the nature of these entities, how they formed, how they came together and how they dissolved, also, what this landscape looked like, and particularly, what would more inclusive coalitions look like? And when I subsequently joined my current university, where I’m currently based – it’s called the Tata Institute of Social Sciences in Mumbai – I joined it in the end of 2009. This interest was particularly suited, I think, to my job as an academic, in the School of Habitat Studies at the Tata Institute, because this is a university and a city that is a great place from which to think and theorise on coalitions. So subsequent work in the last 13, 14 years in Mumbai has been greatly focused on both participating in but also trying to understand and study the ways in which coalitions work and different kinds of coalitions. So yeah, that’s how I would give you a brief entry into my sort of biography of me, but from the lens of coalitions.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Thank you very much, it is an interesting trajectory in starting from the corporate one, to more inclusive kind of coalitions. And our interest is more of on those kind of coalitions that actively involve disadvantaged or marginalised groups. Can you please, based on the research that you mentioned and the case studies that you also highlighted in the article, what are the transformational potentials that these kind of coalitions that involve disadvantaged groups play in changing this exclusionary urbanisation that we are seeing in today’s world?

Lalitha Kamath So I mean, I’ll talk a little bit about some of what I’ve written in the commentary as well and draw from my experience in several Indian cities. Many well-known scholars actually write about the importance and the transformative potential of coalitions, particularly with regards to how they can improve material conditions, how they can reduce political exclusions, how they can realise multiscalar governance. But what I would actually like to focus on a little bit more is a different set of dimensions here, when we think about transformations, that might become possible through the work and the workings of coalitions. And I want to highlight these largely because I feel that these are somewhat understudied and less talked about. But I want to suggest, in fact, that their transformative potential is quite tremendous. So first, I actually want to suggest that the nature of transformation that coalitions seek to achieve, is as much about the generation of a transformative politics that seeks to democratise governance systems than one focused solely on material outcomes. And I’ll explain a little bit more of what I mean by this. I’ll illustrate this, in fact, using the example of a coalition in Pune, which is a city in Maharashtra. It’s a large city, about 3 million people. And it’s located about a few hours from Mumbai, the financial capital. To give you a sense of where it is. So the coalition that I want to talk about is one where a waste pickers union called KKPKP, which is Kagad Kach Patra Kashtakari Panchayat, the full name. This was a union of waste pickers, which in fact successfully re-engineered itself into India’s first self-organised waste workers cooperative called SWaCH. And this was in order to enter into a formal contract with the Pune Municipal Corporation, the local city government, for integrating waste pickers into the city’s municipal service systems. And the way in which this was managed in fact was done with the support of a loose coalition of sorts, a civil society coalition called Waste Matters, a set of rather open minded municipal government representatives who were willing to actually entertain this kind of very unusual contractual agreement. And also then leveraging conducive national policies around municipal waste management. And so it was interesting that it was, you see, that all of these come together in order to make this possible. Though the actual operations of SWaCH being integrated into the municipal service system is in itself worth looking into in more detail. While I won’t focus so much on that, I’ll return to the matter at hand here to talk about the fact that arguably what I saw is among the most radical things that this coalition was able to do, was really about, creating a certain kind of transformative politics. And it generated this politics which really centred on claiming that waste pickers are the city’s workers and through this it sought to link three kinds of domains: the domain of labour, of economy, and of environment within the city. So basically, it sought to show how securing and improving the dignity and livelihood of poor, low caste women waste pickers, how it could valorise economies of recycle and reuse, how it could reduce the economic cost of waste collection and management, and at the same time benefit the environment and contribute to the city sustainability. And what this generating and sustaining of such a politics as you can imagine is not something very easy. And so it was also achieved through, in fact, aligning and changing organisational forms, which then resulted in changing relations at various levels. And so, for example, you saw a change then, the union, the waste pickers union – which typically took on itself a formal confrontational stance with the local government – in fact, now had to adapt that to becoming a service provider in a contractual relationship with the city corporation, a very different ballgame altogether. And the municipal corporation, on the other hand, had to adjust to formally working with the waste workers cooperative and seeing them as service contractors of the city. The citizens of Pune also had to transition from seeing waste pickers, normally people would see them on the road and see women with a sack, you’d see people rummaging to pick up, you know, waste from among, heaps of waste littering the city or from bins located at different points. But now instead of waste pickers as women with a sack, they actually had to think about them as service providers with a uniform. And so this called for incredible kinds of changes, I think, at several levels. And so this is just, I think, an example of the kind of transformative politics that was generated through this waste pickers coalition. And I’m also particularly referring to this as transformative in two senses. So first, what this waste worker politics was able to do was it actually highlighted the dialogical relationship between claims and rights and in fact, greatly enhanced the possibilities for stretching these democratic rights in the future. So we can see that the practices of claim making, in fact, were used to generate new understandings and subjects of rights. So in this case, waste pickers were able to position themselves as formal service providers of the city, backed by their formal integration into municipal solid waste systems. And of course, this was not a secure accomplishment. And in fact, as we speak, is susceptible to considerable reversals. But nonetheless, I argue that this was a significant transformation. The second thing that I want to highlight about why I call this transformative is that because it has the potential to further democratise the existing systems of governance. And this, I think, is actually a very important point and I want to reinforce that just having an urban democracy is not enough. In fact, many of the systems that make up our urban democracy are highly undemocratic, extremely unequal, exclusive in all kinds of ways. And so, in fact, you know, I suggest that democracy democratising the systems that make up our urban democracy is itself a goal of coalitions. In many cases, coalitions form as a result of a struggle to fight back against what they see as deep injustices. And so this, I think, is something that we need to think about far more, that not being content with just living within democracies. How do we democratise the system that we are part of? And so I think coalitions have a great role to play here. If we have the time, Ezana, I can give you another example, but I’m happy to also stop here.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Go ahead, go ahead.

Lalitha Kamath Okay, so I’ll give you another example from a coalition that’s closer to my home. It’s from the city of Mumbai and it’s called the Hamara Shehar Mumbai Abhiyaan and the focus of this campaign was really around democratising the city development plan, which is really the 20-year comprehensive masterplan that’s prepared for the city. And one of the characteristics of such planning in India, this kind of spatial planning in India is, highly exclusive, it’s export-led planning, it doesn’t usually, account for the needs of informal settlements, or the people who dwell in them. In fact, the plan often just sort of, you know, marks them as brown patches, sort of excises them from the plan and does not plan actually for their futures. And so when the time came in 2011 for the revision of the city’s plan, a campaign came together to address the issue of why different informal communities in the city were not actually being planned for. And this was the focus was really on staking claims for these ordinary working class residents, not just as contributors, to city building, but also as citizen planners with their own views and needs about how city space could be allocated for different uses and social groups. And the campaign was in fact a very loose collective, a loose coalition of a number of different actors – there were institutions, there were civil society organisations, there were activists (both as individuals, but also activist grassroots organisations), there were unions – a number of different groups. And while they were not formally given any kind of institutional role in the planning process, we had an open minded municipal commissioner, who headed the city corporation, especially, you know, from the bureaucratic side. And he was actually amenable to opening up this process a little bit. And so this was the reason why the campaign actually played a fairly significant role in giving inputs, in contributing to suggestions and objections, as it’s typically called in the planning process. Now, what’s interesting about this story is not so much in terms of the very concrete, tangible outcomes we can see, because a lot of the suggestions made didn’t get taken up in the ultimate plan that actually emerged. But so in fact, what I also suggest here then, is that we cannot only focus then on very concrete outcomes, but we need to think of this planning process itself and the kind of transformative politics that it actually enabled. And there are a number of different… In the commentary that I wrote, I talked about three important types of effects that are discernible in the aftermath of this planning experience. So first, it created the ground for incubating different sorts of exchanges, collaborations and networks among different and very diverse groups of people as a consequence of participating in the campaign’s deliberations. There were a number of different meetings at ward level, which is, you know, sort of a neighbourhood based at a local administrative unit level, but also at neighbourhood levels. Also, with regard to specific thematic areas such as transport or such as urban villages, so many different kinds of groups of came together to discuss different kinds of ideas. And these exchanges, I think, enabled people to make contact and build relationships with people that they might not otherwise have had the chance to meet. Second, many groups acquired spatial literacy as a result of the campaigns process, and then they sought to use this to question export-driven planning standards, to realign them to the needs of poor, working class citizens. And this was really interesting to see because there were several groups who developed so much literacy that they went on and they still today, you know, can use planning lingo and legal language – “legalese” – that often contracts or plans have deliberately used to muddle or obfuscate matters, and prevent, you know, ordinary people from understanding them. So this kind of spatial literacy you saw start to develop. And finally, I argue that the campaign supported the development of people’s plans, seeing these as offering alternatives to the unjust and exclusive ways in which Indian cities are currently planned. And there are several examples I given in the commentary of one or two of these different communities that actually create their own alternative plan and how the planning process that they undertake in this plan, what it does is that it creates a body of knowledge about that area, and this body of knowledge then becomes so important even subsequently. So, I give the case of during the Covid-19 pandemic, we see that the Municipal Corporation of Mumbai is struggling, because they don’t have detailed information about a lot of the informal settlement areas because they don’t map them in detail. And they don’t have this information. And they are looking for, in fact, spaces for quarantine centres. And in fact, through this planning process in one of the communities, they actually have outlined particular venues and spaces that can be repurposed for these needs. And so the community reaches out to the Mumbai City Corporation and suggests that they build a partnership in order to set up a quarantine centre, to support the local residents in the community. And so it’s, I think, a great example of how a plan and a planning process, that was embarked on at a very different time and for a different purpose, was able to be repurposed and renewed in this form.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Thank you very much. I mean, it’s really interesting. One thing that I really like, you know, from, I mean, I liked everything. But there is one important thing that you mentioned in the, in the commentary that, and now you you also reiterated that it’s not only the direct outcome, but its repercussions or its vibration of the coalition movements. And, as you mentioned, for me, what comes out you know, one of the most important transformational impact sthat I think is, you know, the change of identity. You know, people who are excluded, marginalised in the case of the Pune one, people from the low caste group, waste pickers and so on, being treated as partners or subcontractors. I have also similar in my review of, some African cities, you know, slum dwellers, which used to be where planning was done for them, now their role is changing, their identity’s changing, they are educators or they are where government officials consult their thoughts. So that change of identity and building relationships is really important. And with its cascading impacts beyond the place, we had the pleasure to invite Shalini and Jenna Harvey from the I Too Am Delhi campaign movement. And I didn’t know that it’s the Mumbai one that had an impact or an influence on that, so that’s very interesting. And building on that, my next question is, in your commentary on Diana’s article in Area Development and Policy, you emphasise the importance of, community-produced tacit knowledge. May you say a little bit more on that, you know, what’s this tacit knowledge, why it’s relevant, and what’s wrong with this “expert-led”, this sophisticated knowing of something that has been guiding planning for centuries?

Lalitha Kamath Yeah, absolutely. No, that’s something that I’ve become more and more interested in, in fact, this idea of community-produced tacit knowledge, experiential knowledge. And so this is something that I found very interesting, I think even about Diana’s article, on which my commentary was a response to. So coalition actors, I say in the commentary, are really – they possess tremendous knowledge and this knowledge is based on learning by doing. And this knowledge is typically not written down anywhere. It’s extremely important, but not written down anywhere. And particularly in Indian cities, and I would argue in many cities in the global South, our cities are cities that are founded on practice. Many things are done and acted, and we know them instinctively or through some kind of a tacit form. But they’re not written down, they’re not codified. And particularly this is the case because we have in our cities, we have weak institutional systems. We have huge inequalities. We have our economies that are largely informal. And we have much of urban social life, including state practices, that have operative rules that are discernible, that are coherent, but they are not codified. And so many of us just… We practice and we be, and we know how to do that. But it’s, as I said, not codified anywhere. And so I think in this kind of a larger context, the kind of then knowledge that coalitions build through trial and error, through experimentation, through long trajectories, which are very bumpy. They’re not straight line linear trajectories. They’re very bumpy in terms of they are subject to interruptions, to pauses, to renewings and renewals. And then again, maybe a little bit of a, you know, pause or cessation. So it’s a very uneven, interrupted kind of trajectory. And this typically, this kind of trajectory typically characterises experiential learning. And I think one of my own increasing agendas is to highlight and to visibilise this kind of learning, and to think about the huge possibilities that this kind of learning has – not just in terms of how to understand better big areas of the city. So, for example, these coalitions work in areas typically, that are more marginalised, that are more excluded, by formal records or official records. And so we actually know far less about these areas. And so one thing that coalitions do is they actually through their work, they serve to visibilise and to highlight and to reinforce how we understand these spaces. That’s only one part of the kind of contribution of coalitions. The second part is really looking at a larger, not just a city level, but to think in terms of knowledge, and the hierarchies of power, that we are sort of so conditioned to accept. One of them is really what you mentioned in terms of expert-led planning and the kind of colonial planning that we have not moved very far from, even today. This kind of planning at all does not focus on experiential learning, does not value, sort of lived experience. Far less does it even pay attention to citizens or residents from informal settlements, who work in the informal economy. So I think, one of the real focuses is to think about what kind of tremendous value this kind of knowledge actually poses, not just to understand our cities better, but also, in fact, to build theory from. And so this is something that, you know, is something that I’m increasingly working on going forward. There’s a huge body of scholarship on southern urbanisms, which you and I and so many others have been so inspired by over the last 20 or so years. And I think a lot of this body of knowledge builds on the generative possibilities, of experiential and lived experience. And they look at this both in terms of theorising, more and better, from our own places, how to understand our cities and how to make theory. And equally, I would say that this kind of theory is not necessarily confined only to southern cities, but is becoming increasingly relevant to also parts of northern cities. And so I think it also has tremendous scope for thinking about these kinds of global South, global North exchanges and understandings. So, yeah, I mean, I think I’ve more or less responded to your question.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Yeah, it’s very interesting. For me, like what I see it’s this “expert-led”, if you see a planning document, it’s very idealistic. You know, it’s very difficult to implement most of global South cities’ planning documents, but actually people who live in the informal settlements, they improvise. There is a way to get what they want, you know, with all the restrictions. So it’s a good way to do things, it’s very feasible. And highlighting that, building on that, trying to incorporate it within the formal process, it’s really, something that should have to be encouraged and that should be one of the key agendas of this kind of coalitions.

Lalitha Kamath I’ll give you, I’ll just add, Ezana, I’ll just add a quick example here just to make it a little bit clearer. And I particularly think I work I’ve done a lot of work in urban governance, and that’s an area where which largely functions on practice. There’s almost nothing written about how the urban local government actually functions. And so I think this is really interesting. So if we take the case of the Pune coalition that I mentioned earlier, the waste pickers union and their efforts to be integrated into municipal waste management services. So they were working in the domain of solid waste management. And they knew immediately again, built from practice that in India city governments have very few powers, very limited mandate, but one of the core services that they have almost complete control over is solid waste management. And so the KKPKP, the coalition, the main driver of the coalition, and then the waste cooperative that forms – I’ll call SWaCH – they very deliberately in fact then target the Pune municipal corporation, knowing that municipal waste management is the domain of the local. On the other hand, they also know that not everything is controlled by the city government, that laws and the overall regulatory and larger framework is provided by the regional level government, what in India we call the state level government. And so what they do is they very cleverly weave back and forth between local and state. And so when they need to put some pressure on the local domain, they actually try to do that by working at higher levels of government and putting pressure from the higher levels of government down to the lower level. They also use national level legislation, which comes out at this opportune moment, which focuses on, and in fact encourages, self-help groups and cooperatives of different sorts to get involved in waste management and to also provide door to door collection, which many city governments were struggling at the time to do. None of them at that time did door to door collection. So they, you know, they were desperate, they needed support, they needed ideas for how to do this. So all of this comes together and so they’re able to sort of very effectively navigate this rather complex terrain. And I think this is something, you know, and the the other thing that they do, which is again, very interesting, they work across multiple domains at multiple scales. So for example, they do a demonstration project, where they actually do delivery to show how this can be done. On the other hand, they actually do form a small team and work, and bring out research in collaboration with the ILO. And thinking about ILO as having some kind of, you know, as an international, very well reputed organisation, having the ability to use that and say, this is research done not by us, not by the Indian government, but by the ILO. And let’s use this research, it shows this, so let’s actually, let’s leverage this for our city to improve the waste collection. So I think the ways in which they navigate, as I said, is something very interesting and again, no textbook actually can tell you how to do this, this can only be learned through through the domain of practice and studying practice. And so I think this is the interesting thing that can we actually think about this not just as knowledge that’s generated by communities, but in some ways, at a larger level, knowledge on which our cities largely run. And therefore, I think I was trying to think about then, how can we think of this contributing to a theory of urban and coalition practice? And I think this might be very relevant across many cities across the global South, not just Indian cities.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Thank you very much and you partly addressed my follow up question by interjecting those cases, what I was about to ask you was when we talk about inclusive conditions, we are mainly focusing on those who involve organised disadvantaged groups. But always when they come into this kind of platform into this kind of alliance building, there is a power imbalance, when they try to work with NGOs, civil society organisations or government agencies and so on, there is this power imbalance. And some of the things that you address, working at different scales, fitting one level of government with another, is one strategy to influence your case or to make sure that you are heard. But what I still want your opinion or your reflection, you know, based on experience is what role could researchers, action-oriented researchers or academics could play, to address this power asymmetry. And if you have more examples of the strategies that they use to navigate that terrain or unequal relationship that would also be interesting.

Lalitha Kamath Yeah. No, this is I mean, a very appropriate question, very important. Difficult to give you… I mean, this is something that I still struggle with. I think I’ll begin by saying that there’s no single strategy and in fact, there’s a repertoire, I would argue, of a number of different strategies that often are used in combination. So there is confrontation, there is collaboration, and you weave back and forth. You bring in external – so communities work with external supporters. These could be lawyers, they could be activists, they could be academics, or experts of different sorts. They rely on them to support and help the particular campaign or cause, providing particular knowledge or expertise or in some cases, with academics, it’s often about writing. Of sometimes visibilising a particular issue through writing an op-ed or, writing in, you know, newspapers. In one case in some work that I was involved in some years ago, I was working with a fishing community in Mumbai’s east coast. It’s a very industrialised, very polluted coast. And the fishing community was really suffering saying that, you know, so much of the sewage of the city is disposed in the sea and in the creeks and so much plastic and nobody cares. And there are so many, so much infrastructure projects are coming up. Nobody cares about us and nobody cares about the sea. And so they actually said, would you… I was talking to them, I was doing a research project trying to understand, sort of state–society interface and their own projects of community aspirations for change. And so one of the things they asked me was, would you actually make a film for us because a visual documentation would capture far more powerfully, it would make our point far more powerfully than the written word. And so we thought about it and it really gripped my imagination. And I said, you know, they’ve asked us for this, so we should really try to do it. And so in fact, subsequently, we wrote for a small grant and actually made a short film and then showed it to the… So it was actually a great experience, it’s not something that one can replicate very often, perhaps, but I’m saying it in terms of, I think the thing that I would like to highlight here as a researcher is really the larger ethics of care that should motivate all our research and all our work with communities such as these. And here I’m talking about not the narrow understanding of ethics that is taught in the classroom, which is a highly bureaucratic, institutional review kind of process – fill in this form, get informed consent, and then do a test and then you’ve passed. And then most people, you know, you put it away and then you don’t think about your ethics anymore. And so I think that really should be the beginning point. You know, those kinds of processes should really be the beginning of what kind of an ethics of care can one build with the communities that one works with? And really, some of my work, I’ve tried to centre this idea of building stronger relations with the communities that I work with. And I think this is not, I think there are many people who are engaged in this process of evolving our own ethics with the communities that we work with. Particularly if you have a longer term interaction with these communities. And so if the centre point is really one of relations with them, then I think it becomes much, much harder to just do extractive research, go there, talk to them and, you know, to come away. And I think it becomes then possible for them to actually ask you questions and to actually make demands on you. And I think that’s, I think the best way… You know, you were asking me how can disadvantaged groups, in fact, ensure that their demands are considered? But I think if this is the kind of relationship that is built, and if we are asking questions of communities, then of course they have the right to ask questions back to us and how we negotiate that, how we navigate that, of course, is I think the real issue. But so this is really what I would talk about as… So apart from, of course, having a diverse repertoire of tactics and working with a number of different groups, not closing the doors on any particular collaborator, I would also talk very centrally of ethics and building these kinds of relationships. They can never be equal, I don’t think, because as you suggested, power is so imbued in all of this. But I think one of the guiding principles can be, how can this work in fact give more power to this community to do whatever it is? So it might be a fairly narrow domain. For example, it might be give them more information on a particular aspect, or if they want to reach out to a particular kind of, set of actors or… But how do you put more power in their hands, more knowledge in their hands, as opposed to gatekeeping? I think that’s the other problem. When one becomes the gatekeeper, then everything happens through the gatekeeper, and you become then the central mediator that decides and shapes things. And this is not just for researchers but I would say tremendously this is the case for NGOs and civil society groups. They become the spokespersons. And I think that also becomes very problematic at a certain level.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Thank you. Yeah, it’s really interesting. But these power dynamics also might be also internal. This one, the organised committee groups with external actors but also within the community also there are internal differences. How to navigate that, you know, if you have any experience?

Lalitha Kamath Again, I mean, I think there’s no simple answer to this. And again, no happy endings, often – sometimes. But I think it’s really about how flexible and how we can develop our own capacity to engage and negotiate? I think that really is important because if we close down the processes and spaces of dialogue, then I think that becomes really problematic. And increasingly, we are seeing some of that happening, in many of our cities that, you know, discussions or issues are so becoming so polarised that nobody dares, in fact, share a conflicting view, which means that then you only sit together in your own little echo chamber, only with people who speak and think like you and are like you. And so I think one of the things that coalitions do and attempt to do is they bring together a diverse set of actors and organisations. What this inevitably means is then conflict is tussles and tension and of all sorts. And I think we need to stop thinking of this as also something that’s healthy. So it’s healthy to have a certain amount of disagreement and conflict and through this process, I think the hope is that we can figure out and negotiate with each other, at least to reach some common cause with regards to a larger agenda. And we have seen that happen many times. I have multiple stories of similar cases like this where groups came together and were able to stay together for at least the time, for a brief time, where they negotiated on a common agenda and then after that, of course, you know, the coalition dissolved or certain actors left. But it is possible, I believe. But I think in order to do that, we have to have a certain level of openness, excitement, I think about meeting diverse groups, learning from diverse perspectives of different people. That’s important. And I’ve heard people say that actually that “oh, I was we were in this group and I actually learned something about this, I hadn’t thought about it before”. You know. So. These are and people can also become friends. So I think sometimes the unlikeliest people can become friends. And through these kinds of campaigns, you can see it happen. I did a project a little while ago, a writing project, with a friend and colleague on this particular community in Mumbai, where we actually tried to tell the story of the settlement through the life histories of housing activists. And it was so interesting because we actually delved in some depth, not on the physical, material sort of gains or outcomes of their work. But we actually tried to understand through their life histories how, you know, the connections that were built across a set of people and then how that had then created this change in the place. So it was quite interesting to think about then how just as an individual person you can meet others and through these exchanges, through these gatherings, so much can be possible, not all of it anticipated. So I hold onto some of that hope that, you know, negotiations and being flexible, being open, being excited I think by meeting diverse people and diverse perspectives can lead the way forward.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael No, no. I agree that the hope… I mean that the reason that coalitions form is that there is a hope of change and maintaining that alive is very important. But as your article and Diana’s work and other, recent works have noticed is that this hope is being challenged, this optimism has been challenged. You know, there was back in the 90s and so on, there was this movement of decentralisation, local democratisation. But essentially there is, I mean, I don’t want to be reductive and generalise, but there is a tendency of that door being closed and there is also huge privatisation arising, speculative development. But broadly in general, what are the structural challenges that these kind of inclusive coalitions are facing? And what’s the hope that we can look up to these kind of closing spaces.

Lalitha Kamath Well, I’m not sure I can speak so strongly to the second part of your question on hope, but in terms of responding to the structural limits, I think they are quite considerable and we should really face them squarely. I think there’s no doubt that the stronger the institutional support from government, the greater the possibility to upscale the former reform coalition model. And so state support is clearly a crucial ingredient then in informal coalitions. But increasingly, as you mentioned, we are seeing the state become far less tolerant of this kind of politics. It’s far less committed to providing this kind of an institutionalised platform for different citizen participation and citizen state alliances. This is despite national decentralisation legislation. This is despite considerable pressure from civil society groups. And I think multiple cities, certainly in India, have shown that whatever support there is from government has to be perennially negotiated and always remains contingent. Increasingly, what we are also seeing in Indian cities is the proliferation of new hybrid forms of government, where state power is being concentrated in non-elected entities and many times these embody a state capitalist kind of nexus, increasingly focused on the commodification of land and real estate development. And these hybrid government entities, they are typically staffed – including the urban local governments – they are typically staffed by an array of circulating consultants. Many of them, in fact, are very settled in structures within government. And they use quite different technologies of governance. And so all of this, in fact, really compels civil society organisations to confront the very powerful capitalist forces centred on land commodification. And really, there’s pressure now to devise new modes and tools of engagement. So I think really the crisis is about shifting gears from older ways of negotiating with elected urban local governments and now rethinking, our strategies. And I think part of the crisis is really that we have not fully figured this out. And so there’s really, it’s a difficult space. I think on top of this, what makes things even more complex is that the state in general shapes the contours of civil society engagement and possibility, in other ways. So in India you’re seeing very clear examples, for example, stricter regulation on fund administration, reporting and taxation. Especially, I think there’s been a crackdown on foreign funding, and much greater surveillance also on particular themes that are deemed politically controversial. And so this is all having very dire consequences, actually, particularly for smaller organisations and for those that focus on more… Both on thematic areas that are controversial but also geographic areas. So there are large areas of the Indian nation that are now seen as, you know, areas that really should not be worked on very much. I mean, I’ll give you an example. I work in some parts of Northeast India and it’s very difficult, you can’t really work on many of those places with foreign funding. So you have to look for the right kind of funding that would enable you to do research or work with communities. So overall, we are seeing that civil society organisations are operating in a very complex in fact, they always, always were working in a fragmented landscape, a complex landscape, but one that has become even more complex and lengthy and fragmented. And so there are newer forms emerging, so we are having corporate social responsibility and the kinds of organisations they are spinning off. You are seeing a lot of different kinds of social enterprises, or what’s called social innovators, there are a number of different kinds of organisations that are emerging that are in the non-profit space, but they are rather different from the older forms of NGO or grassroots organisations or trade unions that earlier inhabited this landscape. So we are also seeing a number of newer civil society forms, if I can call them that. And all of this in a time of selectively less funding. So I think the situation in this respect, then, it becomes really complex. And I think one thing I would say in terms of, I’m not sure this is a way out, but increasingly what what I’m seeing happening and where I see more spaces for is in non-formal, non-institutionalised kinds of coalitions. So we need coalitions, very definitely, because I think to resist or to question becomes very difficult as an individual. So definitely we need to come together in different forms of coalitions, but often, the institutional form is feeling like it has more constraints than benefits. Again, these are emerging trends, this is partly from my own personal experience. And so I’m starting to think about then how to work extra-institutionally or across institutions and what new forms these might engender. So there’s some, I think I would say a certain level of excitement there to think about different forms of community, different forms of solidarity, and different kinds of coalitions that one can build, but that are a little bit different from the more formal, institutionalised ones that much more has been written about.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael True. True. Yeah. I mean, this institutionalisation sometimes they might be like, you know, paper coalition or a website coalition, when you actually try to look at what they have done, they might not exist. So it’s the most important thing is the relationship, the collaboration, how often they meet. Those are the things that are important. I mean, I would like to continue asking questions because I’m really enjoying it. But in the interest of time, let me go to my last question. And you have also highlighted on your commentary, but I would like to give you an opportunity, what do you think that further research should focus, with regards to making sure that the coalitions that we build have an inclusive or transformational agenda? What are the areas that are still remaining and how could we better frame those research? Especially, this is also personal for me, I’m trying to, you know, work on that. But in general, how should we frame our research and what should we look at in urban reform coalitions?

Lalitha Kamath No, this is a great question. And something that I too am interested in and have been thinking about. So I can share with you some thoughts, based on also some of what I have written in the commentary piece. I think definitely I would suggest that we need to reframe coalitions and alliance making in a broader way. So one way that I’ve suggested we do this is to think about it as a set of practices that shifts the focus solely from stated goals and material outcomes to a more general mode of self-organising in the urban. So rather than an end state of urban development, that we actually think about then a set of practices. And those that emerge from self-organising processes. And this then takes it out of the much more narrow ambit of poverty alleviation, but also then includes processes of co-producing urban space that involve multiple actors. It could be residents, builders, politicians, cooperatives of different kinds, housing societies, a number of different actors, including the state, very much. And so this reframing also acknowledges, I think, the growing centrality of land and real estate to urban development processes, but also urban redevelopment processes. So in some ways, I’m pushing for this reframing also because I think I’m seeing several different kinds of coalitions emerge at both ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, you have in terms of what’s seen as the more, let’s say, peripheral spaces – spaces on the edges of the city or on the margins or the fringes, where a certain kind of auto-construction by different kinds of informal actors are taking place. So you have it at that end, but you also have at the high end, more elite-led, also informal processes of governance, where you see these kinds of coalitions – loose coalitions or alliances – between certain kinds of capitalists. In many cases developers, builders, politicians, senior politicians. So you have, this is also another kind, but this is elite. And then you have the more, let’s say, the marginalised. And in some ways, what I’m also arguing in this reframing is to actually collapse that boundary and to look at coalitions across both these kinds, because I think so far the discussion is centred more on marginalised actors and their coalitions, and I think that’s supremely important. I’m very interested in that. But I think in order to also understand, I think I’m also arguing to understand the way coalitions work in elite spaces. Because they have huge consequences, I think, for what’s happening in, for marginalised groups. So in some ways, it’s almost like I’m returning back to the start of my PhD work. Yeah, making a making a call or suggesting actually that we look also at these kinds of coalitions as being hugely important. And this, if nothing else, this is a way to hold them to account because I think a lot of them happen in very loose, informal ways. And really there are no easy ways for us to even understand what’s going on. And so I think, this is one kind of reframing that I would suggest on both ends. I would also second suggest focusing on expanding the repertoire and vocabulary of coalition practice. And here again, I’m going back to my earlier theme of knowledge and tacit knowledge, and seeking to valorise this knowledge that has been deliberately erased by powerful actors, including the state. And so this cause, in fact, for redirecting the politics of expertise – something that I’ve been working with quite a bit in terms of planning particularly, looking at how planning operates using a very narrow set of experts and expertise, and basically discounting everything else as expertise. So lived experience is not seen as expertise and therefore not taken into account. So, in some ways, what we are really looking to do is seeking to introduce new conversations on alternative terms, use vocabularies that are grounded in everyday coalition practice. And really, this is, in that sense, a larger political project, not just about expanding the repertoire and vocabulary as researchers to understand these coalition practices better, but to in fact, you know, reshape or significantly dent existing hierarchies of power around what counts as knowledge, what counts as expertise and what doesn’t.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael Thank you. Yeah. Expanding the imaginaries, you know, when you have different words, you can think in a different way. Dr Lalitha Kamath, thank you very much. I understand you were, travelling away, so making time from your busy schedule, I really, highly appreciate it. And I really enjoyed our conversation, Dear listeners, I highly encourage you to read, Lalitha Kamath’s commentary on Diana’s article, it’s available on Area Development and Policy journal. And please also tune into the other episodes of the urban reform mini podcast series. Thank you very much.

Lalitha Kamath Thank you so much, Ezana. I’m so honoured and it’s been such a pleasure to be part of this podcast.

Ezana Haddis Weldeghebrael You have been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame This is the African Cities Research Consortium podcast. Today we have Jane Wairutu from SDI-Kenya, and Nancy Njoki and Nicera Kimani from Muungano wa Wanavijiji, who are visiting us from Nairobi, Kenya. I am Daniela Cocco Beltrame part of The University of Manchester at the Global Development Institute and also part of the African Cities Research Consortium. So first of all, let’s talk a little bit about Muungano wa Wanavijiji. It means “united slum dwellers” in Kiswahili and Muungano is the Kenyan Federation affiliated with Slum Dwellers International, or SDI, and it is made up of local groups from cities and towns across Kenya. It’s a network of community-based organisations working towards improving the quality of life of slum dwellers in Kenya through a process of advocacy and through dialogue. So thank you for being with us today and congratulations on all of your hard work. In the past few years, you have been involved in the African Cities Research Consortium as a team from Nairobi. So please, if you could start us off by telling us a bit about the action research process in ACRC. How did you engage with stakeholders, such as government and community members, throughout the research? I don’t know who wants to start.

Nancy Njoki Thank you so much. For the action research with ACRC, so we’ve been able to engage a lot of partners. So what we did, we started with the stakeholders meeting, where SDI and Muungano wa Wanavijiji, our role was to coordinate these meetings and bring this consortium together. So we had several meetings before we started the action research and also with the kind of relationship we’ve had. So in each of the consortia, so each of the consortia was doing a different theme, so as SDI, we have been engaged when doing the research and as SDI and Muungano, we were the ones who are helping even in mobilisation and also coordinating the meetings with the government officials. So basically as SDI we’ve been really involved in the ACRC and then using the community to give feedback and also be part of the action research.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame That’s amazing. Nicera, is there anything that you want to say about stakeholder engagement in research processes in general? Either Nicera or Jane, whoever wants to go.

Nicera Kimani So for me, you can say that looking at the ACRC and the engagement with government and also other stakeholders I would say that maybe if you allow me just to give a reflection of how it was delivered and also the terminologies, so when it was being introduced to us, there were so many domains that were coming up, like the structural domain, the health domain. But then for us, when we went back and reflected on what all this is, it was the work that Muungano was doing for a very long time, for a very long time. And it was just the names which were different. They had different names, but we were doing the same thing, because there’s a certain domain that was related  to  livelihoods. And there was a project that we did that was related to this domain, known as; the Safe and Inclusive Cities programme, whereby we are tackling two things: safety and decent work. So this domain was exactly what we were doing, the decent work. It was what the domain was talking about. But anyhow, we have done with quite a lot in Muungano as well and through the ACRC that brings now these stakeholders, the community which is Muungano now, we are doing the uptake. Bringing all these people together, the researchers, the government, I think it was so useful and also it was like a reflection and also a gamechanger on how things should be done differently, because for long we’ve been working in silos. Some organisations, let me say that, but then I think the ACRC brought something different on board. I can also say that also with the SPA, if I also go back to the SPA, the Mukuru Special Planning Area, I think it was something that was the same as what we were doing the SPA, where we brought about different consortium and we were able to mobilise a lot of organisations, big government officials, to come together and speak for the betterment of the community. And that was so useful because after collecting all these data, after engaging the community, there was the implementation. And when I look at the SPA, I think these are two things that I think people should focus on and also make sure that we borrow the model, the model of ACRC and also the model of SPA, so as we can be able to do things in a different way. Because these are two things that were done very differently and they were very successful. We await to see the second phase of the ACRC, what it brings on board, and also we await to see now the actual implementation to what happens with the ACRC. Are we going to go back two steps or are we going to go forward? I think it’s now broadening our minds and also like making sure that ACRC will not be just another project that comes and goes away and then we forget about it. You find even today people talk about SPA. We want ACRC, after we finish the ACRC, people to talk about the ACRC and how we can upscale it and how we can get more funding so as we can be able to continue working in cities. Look at the global North. We have cities, we have many cities, we have cities within the cities, but in some cities there is very little happening and that’s like we have forgotten some cities. And by the way, I’m sad because ACRC, I thought that instead of us focusing on very few cities in the second phase, maybe my thought was we were going to upscale the programme and also get to other cities.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame Actually, maybe we could. But on the topic of building coalitions and stakeholder engagement, I’m wondering, Jane, if you want to say anything to make us understand a bit more about the relationships and the networks that you have built, both, of course, as Muungano and also as SDI-Kenya, the coalitions that have been built through the process with diverse actors to disseminate the findings and make sure to facilitate uptake.

Jane Wairutu Thank you very much. Just to add to what Nicera and Nancy have been speaking about on the coalition building, I think, like Nicera mentioned, the first time we did a project where we brought in very many stakeholders was through the Mukuru SPA. And we were only focusing on one section within the city or one particular area. And it gave us a lot of learning in terms of coalition building. How do you identify the relevant stakeholders? So what we started with was mapping out stakeholders within the various sectors or the various consortiums within the process, seeing the strengths that they have and how they can support the work that we were trying to do. And from there, Mukuru SPA its been a learning and now when ACRC came in, at least we had made a lot of connections, especially with the city government or county government. We had made relationships with the various departments and we had even had a champion for the work that Muungano was doing. But initially it was just focused on Mukuru. But ACRC is a gamechanger, where they’re looking at the city level, looking at interventions that really look at the city level. The research that will focus and come up with actions that support communities at the city level, the research that can be used by organisations to implement various interventions, by the domains are there at the city level. So for us, we see that it’s moving away from just focusing on one area to the city-level conversation together with the county and other stakeholders. And again, ACRC was a gamechanger in another way, by bringing in the private stakeholders, the companies, people like Kenya Association of Manufacturers coming in and listening to the conversations of communities, which was not happening before, through the structural transformation domain. We had a lot of private individuals coming in to be part of the conversation. So I think that has been useful – the model that ACRC took up and we were able to implement. While another thing that we have done is ensure that stakeholders disseminate back the data to the communities. That data that is collected, the researchers are able to go back to the community and give back their findings and get opinions from the communities where they can. For example, in Mathare, where Nancy comes from, where they did the first phase of the research, so they’re able to come back and disseminate and build those relationships, even with the communities, from the researcher to now the community level and also having the county departments getting interested in their research. And most of them are eager for Phase 2, to see what happens. So I’m sure when we start Phase 2 and launch it officially, we are really eager to see how they can plug in as a department, which is, I think a success for the research, for ACRC.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame Yeah, and speaking about relationship with government and partnership with government, has the process in ACRC changed your understanding of the type of partnership or the way in which you could partner with government and with other groups or even Muungano’s strategy of working with government more directly, how are you thinking about working with government right now?

Nancy Njoki So I think with ACRC, it has improved what had been done when we were doing the Mukuru SPA. So we continued building the relationship and also with the kind of relationship, because with ACRC we have a lot of researchers, the academia, so the level of engagement is a bit high. So it’s a very rich engagement and a very educated engagement, so with issue-based engagement, we are able to go with the researchers, doctors to the county government, explaining the results of what had been found in those researches. So I think we’ve improved, our level has gone a bit high. So also to say, these coalitions we built also in the informal settlements on the research from the ACRC, which was in the previous question. So I think we’ve had the USP, we used this research for other interventions. Apart from waiting for the next phase, we are still using the research in other interventions.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame It’s amazing. That speaks about the implications of research on the ground. Nicera, do you have any comments as regards the relationship with government, anything that you would want to add about relationship building and partnership building, not only with government, maybe with other actors?

Nicera Kimani Yeah. As Nancy said, it has changed greatly. And my mother used to tell us at times when you do things the same way, you might think you’re the best, but when you do things differently, things become better than what you used to do. So basically, to be honest with you, we’ve not had a project that brings all peoples together. At times we will find the community struggling on this side, and the researchers struggling on this side to get to the community. But then you find that there’s a lot of gap, in that things don’t happen the way communities or even the researchers at times want to happen. And I can say that one thing that I’ve seen in the ACRC is the level of engagement, the level of understanding, and even to the communities. You know, when it comes to language, it tends… the language is difficult, and even these wording, they are difficult, but you find that whatever the language the researchers use, if it is broken down, we understand it quite clearly. So the ACRC when it started was so difficult for us even to understand, but when we went on, it was so much easier. And also to engage with these professors, to engage with these researchers, it was easier to engage with them and also interact with them. And challenge them. Because in this type of set-up, for example, the ACRC and even the SPA, at times the researchers might think they are doing their best thing at times even these academics and professors, yeah they have gone through the academic way, we have the actual work, we have the community, what they need. So at times we challenge them in the ACRC, at times we tell them our reason, we as Muungano, we want these things done this way, we are the uptake, we are on the ground. This is the type of result we want to do, this is the type of things we want to happen, you know, informal settlements, because, yes, it is a city- wide research. But then in these cities, we have these communities, which are all together. That makes our city because it is the communities which makes the city. We have the rich communities, we have the informal settlement, we have the slum. So basically it’s like we challenge each other to come to a common understanding and we move forward. And that has been happening in ACRC and also with the government officials, they have listened to us, the researchers have listened to us, and that’s why you see we are, contrary to what they were saying, that when there was this proposal whereby we wanted to take the project to the suburb areas, but for us, we feel that it is very important for us to take this project into an informal settlement. I know we all matter in the city, but when they come to the services I think it is the informal settlement that needs these services the most, and also we need this data the most, so as we can be able to advocate for services and what we want as communities. Because if I’m coming to your area, for example, and you are paying, let’s say, for example, during the housing domain we had areas who are paying a rent of 1.5 million, that is in Nairobi. You are in a house that you’re paying 1.5 million, 400,000 Kenyan shillings, but we are the same city whereby we have an area which is paying 2,000 Kenyan shillings, we have an area which they are paying 500 Kenyan shillings. So that’s those dynamics, so where do we draw the line? So where do we put in the resources, where do we focus on? So there was the question of where do we do the piloting? And that is why we narrowed down to Mathare.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame Very interesting experiences in coalition building and building partnerships across actors in society. And you were talking a little bit about the difficulties in working with academics, right? We’ve been reflecting about this at ACRC constantly, I would say, in a healthy way. So I wanted to ask you, you are referring to certain elements, right, elements about having the opportunity to challenge each other and using language that works for all parties. What are other elements, I wonder, that make for a good relationship between academics and practitioners and communities on the ground?

Jane Wairutu At times yeah we have challenges, at times, working with academia because of their theoretical way of doing things. And the biggest challenge that we had had at the beginning, for many years, was community research being accepted by the academic institution, being seen, citizen science being seen as academic, like communities, even collecting data, having communities who can collect their own data. You know, it was something that is very contentious at some point with some of the researchers. And, with time, like Nicera said, we had these conversations to ensure that communities are able to collect their own data, they are able to articulate their own issues, even though they wouldn’t use the best English, the best phrases, the best terminologies, but they are able to use very simple terminology to articulate their issues. So I think the biggest role that academia has is to interpret the issues that are coming up and bring interventions through their spaces. They interpret this simple information and make it complex, easy to complex reports that are maybe needed at the academic space, but, you know, they’re the ones to try to interpret what the community is saying and doing. And they’re able to influence other academia, on the role of communities by just showing what communities have done on the ground. So we have had issues in terms of the methodologies, in terms of the tools that we use. At times, they might be too long, they might be too complicated, too many questions. So those are some of the things that we at times face. And also the terminologies that Nicera had spoken about, like ACRC at the beginning, it was very complex for everyone. And now it’s reached a point now the local researchers, or the lead researchers within the domains, they had to interpret those terminologies for communities and even other stakeholders, because you found even some of these terminologies, even the county governments, need to understand what we were speaking about at the beginning. So a lot of back and forth in terms of trying to understand what is the project about. And eventually they have come to understand and really support now the programme for Phase 2.

Nancy Njoki Also, when we were beginning, it was a bit difficult for the researchers to just appreciate that the community is able to take quality data. So I think over time we’ve been able to bridge that out. So at least for now, when we’re doing our last researches, so communities were very much involved with collection of the data.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame And did they refer to any issues working with academia, anything that your broader communities brought up to you and mentioned, something that maybe they didn’t like or would like to see done differently? You mentioned a bit about the language and tweaking the methodology and having a say, you know, in the process. Is there anything else? I’ve heard you yesterday in one of the classes that you were giving, talking a little bit about data ownership and the need to go back to communities with the findings and share it with them. Is there anything that you would like to say about that or about anything else?

Nancy Njoki So I think as communities, what we like when we do this research, something that should be done is after we collect this data from the community members, and also if community members had been involved in writing a blog, done some interviews, just the recognition of that community member or that community in the writeups, in the briefs, in everything that is put up, and also taking that data for validation back to the community, so this one will help the communities own this data. And also they can use this data for the other advocacy issues. So once you are given the data, they’ve identified what intervention can be done in consultation with the community. So this data, apart from being used by the researchers, maybe for the academics or papers, can also be used by the communities for their own benefit.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame Nicera, is there anything that you would like to add about the relationship between academics and communities, especially in the ACRC project, but in general, is there anything that you think makes a good relationship between academia and communities? Anything beyond what we’ve been discussing about being respectful and using language that makes sense to both parts? Then we were referring to going back to communities for validation and for feedback. Is there anything else in that relationship?

Nicera Kimani I think the trust. I think when the community is trusted, they can do wonders. And also, like Nancy says, I think it is, and regardless of what kind of data you have, because I know you have this satellite imagery, if you have that image and you want to do an intervention around that, come back to that community. Discuss that image with that particular community. If you have any kind of data, just go back to community and have a conversation, even before you think about publishing the findings or sharing the findings with the peoples who you want to share with. Because generally, and even yesterday by the way, there was a question around that, whereby students were asking if someone was not counted, maybe by default or maybe something happened and that person was not there, so what happens? And he or she must appear in that datasheet. So if you go back, the community will tell you and also advise you where to find that person and you’ll be able fill in the gap, instead of you publishing data that is not accurate, because if the data is not accurate, by the way, of course, we have a lot of data which is not accurate, that is making rounds, but then for the ACRC and also for us as an organisation, Muungano, we advocate for quality data that’s why we say community should be in the forefront. Even if you are going to interview the president, who do you call then? The key informant interviews. I know that is where the researchers draw the line. The researchers think that because we are going to interview those big people, communities cannot appear anywhere, but then we forget that this community, they’re the same who want these services to be done. And if you involve these communities in the designing of this questionnaire of the key informant interviews, you might end up having a more quality research, as opposed to whereby you sit down and design the questions yourself. So I think the involvement of community from the word go, it is very important, regardless you’re going to interview a key informant, regardless you are going to interview the community, I think when it comes to research, communities should be put at the centre stage. And we are hopeful that the ACRC in the second phase, that is what is going to happen and it is happening already and we need more of that and we need more trust. And also and we need even when they are going to interview the key informant interviews, let community to be there.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame I couldn’t agree more. So unfortunately, this is all the time we have. But I wanted to to close us off by offering a bit of space for any final reflections, especially on the ACRC research process. Anything that you want to share with anyone listening about learnings or reflections or ideas moving forward after this phase of ACRC research?

Jane Wairutu So I think there has been a lot of learning, like my two colleagues have mentioned, in terms of relationships with the county government, just deepening relationships with county departments and county governments. And then the key role that the academia plays when it comes to bridging relationships between communities in the county government or city government. We found that the academia also plays a big role because the findings or the research that is done in collaboration with communities and the academia, you find that the research is well taken up by anyone easily and especially their government. So having those coalitions of where you have communities, academia, researchers, and also another thing that has come out – the need for us who are working in this space to also engage the private sector in our conversations. Because some of these interventions that we are trying to come up with, the private sector also plays a role, in terms of giving us feedback on maybe the process we are doing. When asked, even the community gets an opportunity to even challenge the private sector in these forums and also share the issues they are facing because of maybe even manufacturing companies that are, for example, polluting, you know, sending all their waste to the informal settlement. So they have that opportunity to also share with them. So one thing that was different was the engagement of also the private sector in the research. And, like Nicera and Nancy, I think the communities should take a lead. I say, they do not be at the centre, they should take a lead. So from the design of the project, from the design of the tools, to implementation, to data collection and everything, the community should be at the lead, at the forefront, speaking about their issues. Meaning that the researchers and academia and the institutions have a big duty of returning back data, communities and reports that they can use for that particular research advocacy and any other projects that might come up in the future.

Nancy Njoki So I also think with the first phase, so the ACRC consortium was able to come up with different PCPs [priority complex problems]. So these PCPs from different domains, I think we can use them to fundraise or to get some funding from the government, from local stakeholders, from international stakeholders. We can be starting, we can start doing something for our communities because already we know there is this challenge and we can move forward as we wait for the next phase of the ACRC.

Nicera Kimani From where I sit, I want to see more in this project, more in the sense that whatever is being done in communities, in our cities, it’s beneficial and that will happen when we engage more the community and also with their trust, with the confidence from the community and also the stakeholders, I think this will be achievable. And yes we’ve seen good things come out of ACRC and we are hopeful that we’ll see much more in this second phase and as the second phase comes in. Personally, I’m happy about this ACRC and I’m happy to see that we can be able to sit down with all these stakeholders on one table and discuss about the good of our cities, similar to what’s happened in the SPA programme, although it was being done in just one area. I think now we have an opportunity to upscale and do something great.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame Thank you so much, Jane Wairutu from SDI-Kenya, and Nancy Njoki and Nicera Kimani from Muungano wa Wanavijiji from Nairobi, Kenya. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom and your experience with us. I hope our listeners enjoy it as much as I did.

Nicera Kimani Thank you.

Nancy Njoki Thank you.

Jane Wairutu Thank you.

Daniela Cocco Beltrame You’ve been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.

Smith Ouma Welcome to the African Cities podcast. My name is Smith Ouma. I’m a research fellow with the African Cities Research Consortium. With me today is Peter Kasaija, with whom we’ve been collaborating in informal settlements-related research in Kampala. Peter is a researcher with the Urban Action Lab Geography Department, Makerere University in Uganda. Welcome, Peter. It’s good to see you.

Peter Kasaija Thank you very much. Smith.

Smith Ouma So for starters, Peter, could you paint a picture for us of what a journey from Entebbe International Airport – which is Uganda’s main airport – to the heart of Kampala, will look like for someone that’s visiting Kampala for the first time.

Peter Kasaija Yes, that’s a very interesting question. I think for anyone who’s been to Uganda before and has travelled from Entebbe into Kampala, it’s quite an eye-opening experience. I mean, starting from Entebbe airport and then, of course, you have to drive through more or less what I would call a high-value or very affluent neighbourhood. This affluent neighbourhood initially started out as a colonial administration point before the colonial administration shifted the administrative capital from Entebbe to Kampala. So the typical experience is that first you leave the airport, you drive through this affluent neighbourhood, where laid-out roads, high-income neighbourhoods, large bungalows and these very large quarter-acre properties, leafy suburb, your typical high-end, affluent neighbourhood really. And then of course, as you leave Entebbe, the picture or the scenery changes. Until recently, access to Entebbe Airport or that peninsula where Entebbe Airport is actually located, the one route to Kampala was essentially your typical drive along a road that was markedly characterised by mostly haphazard commercial developments, linear developments along the road. These were mostly composed of informal developments – supermarkets, shops, small activities, kiosks, again, I would say, the typical layout of your linear town or linear developments in an African city. And then, five or six years ago, interestingly, what happened was that an alternative route was opened up – the so-called Entebbe Expressway. So the experiences when it comes to using either one of the two roads are very different. As I said, the first road, the old road, was your typical linear, informal kind of road, where you drive through these little shops, little kiosks, supermarkets, a messy kind of set up, always prone to having to be caught up in traffic jams along the way and all kinds of disruptions in your movement. But you got to see a little bit of the flavour of the city. The informality itself was like you got a flavour of it going through the old road. But now with the new road, the Expressway, things are very different, because this is an exclusive route. Of course, with the opening of that road, it has triggered again high-income, affluent neighbourhoods along this particular road. But you’re not going to see the same character of the linear, haphazard, informal developments that you’ll find along the old Entebbe road. So what you see here is a well curated, laid out roadway that is very exclusive because it is also tolled – you have to pay a tax to actually use it. So you have these two contrasting experiences of leaving Entebbe, travelling to Kampala, where you can choose to take the more exclusive route. This nice breezy Expressway with all these high-end tiled red tiles villas along it, with very little in terms of the informality that you would expect to see in an African city. You’re essentially driving through a highly sanitised environment, which does not really give an indication of what the real flavour, or the real character, of the city is. So it’s very deceptive as you use that alternative route, the more exclusive route, very different from the old route, which actually went through these little informal developments, linear developments that led you to Kampala. And it’s only when you actually go off that exclusive road, the Expressway, you realise that oh, there’s a very different image of Kampala from what I’ve actually seen along the Expressway. I think that can give you just a bit of those two contrasting experiences, depending on the road that you take when you’re travelling from Entebbe to Kampala.

Smith Ouma Very interesting that the road that you take exposes you to certain realities, but certain realities are also obscured, depending on what road you choose to gain entry to this very important African capital.

Peter Kasaija It definitely gives you the two faces of the capital – one, which is the exclusive minority and then one which is the majority. But of course, this is something which is not any different from any other city in Africa. Indeed. But that’s Kampala for you – Kampala Entebbe to Kampala, or Kampala to Entebbe.

Smith Ouma Thank you. So it looks like informality is still a defining feature of Kampala as a city. Also, being a researcher in the informal settlements domain, what do you think around what are the important systems within these areas that are considered to be invisible, yet they’re still there? What systems are important to the functioning of informal settlements within Kampala?

Peter Kasaija Based on our research and experience accumulated over several years as a researcher, I think the most important systems that are really critical, when it comes to informal settlements or the informal side of Kampala, are the basic services. When you talk about solid waste management, water provision, sanitation, when you talk about drainage, these for me are the most critical, because they evidently shape the character of informal settlements and the experiences of people who live in these informal settlements. The quality of these services, the issues around accessibility, issues around the nature of coverage, the extent of the coverage, issues around the governance of these systems, all of these, when you bring them together, they ultimately are the most important ones that shape not just the functionality, but how people experience or how they live the informal life as we know it in a city like Kampala.

Smith Ouma Yeah. And you also understand that when it comes to these issues that you mentioned, questions around access, questions around the governance of these different systems, that politics, especially within a capital city context like Kampala, plays a very important role. So what are these political dynamics that you’ve identified at either an informal settlement context, a city context that is Kampala, or at a national context, that influence how the inhabitants, particularly urban informal settlements, access basic services?

Peter Kasaija I think it eventually goes down to those key elements I’ve pointed out regarding these systems – the issue of access. Who determines who has access to a particular service? Who determines the coverage of a particular service? Who is going to determine, for example, the quality of service? Who is going to determine the governance arrangements, the structures that mediate how these particular services are operated, how they function, how they are sustained, or how they are maintained on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis? So evidently it comes down to who are these key actors behind these particular systems? And the kinds of decisions that they make on a day-to-day basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, will determine, for example, how the residents or stakeholders in these informal settlements negotiate, how they bargain for, when it comes to accessing these particular services or issues that will affect the level of coverage or the quality of these services. Is it high quality kind of services or is it low quality kind of services? And I think it is those politics that will evidently shape access to basic services in the informal sector or the informal settlement domain in Kampala. And of course, these individuals are represented by a variety of what I would call institutions. We have the formal institutions, the city government. We’re following the standard dual system of governance, so the technocrats, the political leaders or the political officials, these are very important players. But outside the state, the city government, you also have the NGOs. NGOs are very important players. While they might want to present themselves as being neutral, unfortunately, they are not. Perhaps the words that come into play here are probably being either overtly neutral or covertly neutral or intentionally neutral or unintentionally political. So you have the city government, the state, one of the major state-based actors. You have the NGOs, but another one of the state actors, we have organisations like National Waters and Sewage Corporation, we have regulatory organisations like the National Environmental Management Authority. We have other important state actors like the ministerial bodies, although those ones have a more residual kind of influence, not as much as National Waters and Sewage Corporation or KCCA or the NGOs, for that matter. And then, beyond those, the recognisable ones or the visible ones, we also have the CBOs, which are also playing important roles in filling important deficits or critical deficits. You also have cartels as well, who are important players. These are individuals who have created power bases in informal sectors using their significant resources, power and influence to influence systems. We have the private service providers when it comes to water, sanitation, waste management. These are also important players. We also have cultural institutions. The Buganda government, I think, is playing an important role, being a major landowner in the city and where many of these informal settlements are, the religious institutions, the Catholic Church, the Protestant Church of Uganda, the Uganda Muslim Supreme Council, that’s for the Muslims. All these are major stakeholders because they own a lot of land, in some cases where most of these informal settlements are located. So the invisible hand of different actors is very much involved in shaping the politics around access to basic services, as depicted.

Smith Ouma And it’s very interesting that you’ve identified some of these actors at different levels. And, as you say, they operate at different levels within the city and different scales. And I’m particularly interested, for instance, let’s pick an example, waste collection within informal settlements: who would you say are the main actors responsible for these kind of service provision? First, does it exist? To what extent does it exist? Who are the main actors when it comes to provision of solid waste management services in Kampala?

Peter Kasaija Kampala is an interesting case, where we now have a scenario of several important players, with the recent introduction of a franchise working arrangement, where KCCA have contracted private waste collectors to undertake waste collection.

Smith Ouma And for the purposes of clarity to our listeners, KCCA is?

Peter Kasaija The Kampala Capital City Authority.

Smith Ouma Oh, great. Thank you.

Peter Kasaija Yeah. So the Kampala Capital City Authority contracted private companies, firms to undertake waste collection on their behalf across the city. But the fact that in informal settlements, because under this franchise arrangement, the private collectors are meant to do the collection for a fee, but most of the residents in informal settlements cannot afford these fees. So eventually what was negotiated was that the private collectors would collect solid waste in areas, for example, like the markets, affluent neighbourhoods – these are considered to be entities who can pay for the service. And for the informal settlements, KCCA took it upon themselves to actually collect the waste in the informal settlements for free, considering the fact that most of the residents in these informal settlements cannot afford paying for these services. However, because of the fact that there’s a lot of politics embedded in these processes, you will find that that service is very uneven in informal settlements, depending on, for example, the nature of leadership in these informal settlements. Informal settlements where you have highly charismatic local leaders – we call them local council chairpersons with their committees – those were highly charismatic, very powerful, very vocal, are able to ensure that you have more or less regular, more consistent solid waste management services being offered, while in other cases, where leaders are not as vocal and not as charismatic, or belong, for example, to the opposition, for them, it’s relatively harder to actually secure more consistent services or provision of these very important waste management facilities like the garbage skips and the like. So that has created that uneven landscape, where while the Kampala Capital City Authority has taken it upon itself to provide the services in the informal settlements, it is very uneven. You’ll find places where solid waste management is relatively very consistent and in other areas, where is very inconsistent, because of largely the politics and of course other factors – not just the politics, but politics plays a very important role in shaping the quality of services and the evenness of services, waste management services, in informal settlements.

Smith Ouma Urban politics, also, you bring out the idea of the issue around political affiliation. Does that also play out at a settlement level, settlements affiliated to certain political orientations or aligned with certain political parties receive preferential treatment? Is that true?

Peter Kasaija Yes, to a certain extent. We are not saying that it is the major factor, but those affiliations play important roles in terms of negotiation, power and influence of, say, local leaders to pressurise the city government to provide the services. But then you also have other factors coming in – where I talked about the charisma, how vocal an LC1 chairperson is or a local leader is, how much power and influence they have, because in some cases, these are the outliers. You might find opposition-leaning or -aligned local leaders, but because of the fact that they have shoehorned the skills of negotiation and bargaining, they are still able to secure these services, unlike maybe other areas where they do have leaders who are NRM-leaning, but they are very weak. So the character of the leaders is also a very important factor that comes into play, in addition to their political alignment also playing a role to a certain extent.

Smith Ouma So power and influence of local leaders also have a bearing when it comes to access and provision to services. And does this also feature when it comes to political competition? So do we see political actors competing to enable access to these services to their electorate within their constituencies or within the local area that they come from? And does this influence the distribution of basic services within the settlements? So competition between local politicians, does this have any bearing around allocation or distribution of basic services?

Peter Kasaija Yes, definitely. There is competition and it has a bearing on the allocation of the provision of services, but only to a certain extent. Because what we have found is that inasmuch as you have these political affiliations at the local level, at the settlement level, there seems to have emerged a tendency of these leaders to be able to negotiate and bargain without having to create a situation of deleterious competition. One is aware that I am aligned to the NRM and he knows his colleague is aligned to, say, the National Unity Platform, one of the newest opposition parties, led by Bobi Wine, also known as Robert Kyagulanyi. But what has happened, if I can go back to the point I was trying to make, is that they have been very savvy. To find a middle ground amongst themselves, to negotiate and bargain, to ensure that whatever competition would have emerged or contestation between them because of their political affiliation, it is not very visible. There tends to be a consensus on them trying to achieve the so-called public interest. For example, when we talk about solid waste management, you’ll find that there’s always agreement amongst themselves, these local leaders, the powerful nodes around which power and influence rotate in these informal settlements, to negotiate these differences, to transcend these differences and ensure that services are provided without having that stalemate or gridlock of political party affiliations, determining whether services actually are provided or not. And that is the unique thing we’ve found about informal settlements in Kampala, and that’s condition where the local leaders or these important players are able to strike some kind of common ground consensus that we are working in the public interest, we put aside our political differences, we all know which affiliations we belong to, but we try to put aside these differences to ensure that services are provided. And that’s like a progressive way in which power, or productive power we are seeing in these informal settlements, because I think it comes from the fact that we are all in this together: we either sink as a community or we swim as a community. So we have to strike that common ground to ensure that we all meet our common objectives, common needs of survival.

Smith Ouma This coming together between these politicians to enable service provision to the inhabitants, is it a feature that we can also see in the more affluent areas of the city? Or is it something that is unique to these informal settlements where you work?

Peter Kasaija I cannot say much about the other parts of the city outside the informal settlements, but the feeling is that politics is not very strong, doesn’t strongly play out so much in the affluent neighbourhoods, because there’s a sense that they tend to transcend their political differences, political ideologies. And for them it’s always about the services. So I can only speculate that the politics is probably not as intense or as visible as in the informal settlements, where people, local leaders, important individuals, clearly stand out, identify as an NRM-leaning person – nRM is the the incumbent government, the current government – or an NUP-leaning person, which is the opposition. So while we see it as being the politics, being very visible, playing out on a daily basis in the informal settlements, I’m not sure whether it actually plays out to the same level or the same scale outside the city because the needs are different, the issues are slightly different for the kinds of communities we are talking about. And I would think that the nature, the way that politics plays plays out, it’s probably not as intense as you would have it here, a little more visible, in the informal settlements.

Smith Ouma It’s less visible there. And oftentimes the inhabitants of informal settlements are viewed as these political pawns, who are moved around by local politicians who try to advance their interests. But is this necessarily the case in Kampala’s informal settlements, or do these inhabitants also assert their agency? Do they also play a role, do they also have some influence around how services are provided to them and who can access these services?

Peter Kasaija Very good question. And that’s one of the things we’ve been grappling with recently, until, of course, we had those very interesting findings. Often the perception is that poor people, informal settlement residents, are mere pawns in this broad political game of jockeying for power, for influence, for the benefits that come along with power. But what we have seen from our research is that informal settlement residents are actually displaying a high level of agency. By being able to make certain choices, when you see the choices they make – for example, I’ll use the case of the two sites which we engaged in our research – when you look at the electoral patterns, the electoral patterns point to a picture of them leaning more and more towards the opposition. Because gradually, since 2016, 2011, the support for the NRM government in the presidential elections, the main presidential elections, has been gradually falling. And yet we are very much aware that they still have these pockets, where you have, for example, powerful individuals, like local leaders, still identifying with the NRM government, or even communities themselves identifying with the NRM government or as supporters of the NRM government. So that in itself has brought out a picture whereby we see informal settlement residents being able to display a certain savviness, in that they are not what you would refer to as these pliable communities: that word has been spoken, this is how you should vote, this is what you should do. Not necessarily. They will make choices based on certain logics, certain levels of intelligence, based on their own community knowledge, local knowledge that defies the assumptions that they are simply pawns in a wider or broader political game. And it is those old perceptions that have given us these stereotypical perspectives of informal settlement residents as being these pliable, neutral, non-political individuals or elements. But the research says otherwise, that they are very political, they are not as neutral as we think, and they are making choices which, at a specific moment in time, choices are based on certain needs, certain interests, and not necessarily because they’ve been compelled to make these particular choices. So there is definitely agency we are seeing in these informal settlements.

Smith Ouma Okay, great, great. That, in a way, is very fascinating because oftentimes on a site, there’s always that view, that perception, but your engagement, and also just looking at politics around informal settlements and how inhabitants position themselves, in a way gives a different picture – that they know how to navigate local politics and they understand how to advance their interests with this understanding of how the political arrangements are within the settlement and also on the city level.

Peter Kasaija Yes, if I can use, for example, a very vivid case of one of the settlements that we researched, where the settlement is located in a wetland. And so their most immediate threat is eviction by the city authority, because they are essentially located in the wetland illegally. Their possession of that settlement, their living in that settlement is under the framing of illegality. The city council, the Kampala Capital City Authority sees that or views that as an illegality. The same thing with National Environment Management Authority, because clearly the settlement has gone beyond the beacons that have been set as a boundary. Now, to their credit, they have been savvy enough to realise that “we are under illegality. Our occupation of this wetland is considered to be illegal. But how do we protect ourselves against eviction?” And that is where they are smart enough to use the cover of the NRM, or as supporters of NRM, so that they can avoid being a victim, because that in itself makes them untouchable. Because at the entrance of the settlement, and LC1 chairperson’s office, which is meant to be neutral, has been painted the colours of the NRM government, so that is a signal, that is symbolic that we are supporters of the NRM government, we are untouchable, we cannot be removed. And it has worked. The city government cannot touch them. National Environment Management Authority has not tried or attempted to evict them, out of the fear that there will be repercussions if they evict these supporters of the NRM government. And that shows you just how savvy they are in being able to understand the political dynamics, the political winds, and to navigate and negotiate them accordingly, in their own interests, in their benefit. And yet you realise that, as I highlighted before, the support for the NRM government itself has been dropping, has been falling. And yet they’re here masquerading as NRM supporters. So that shows you that delicate balance they’ve being able to strike or that line that they’ve been able to … that position they’ve been able to put themselves in, to be able to meet their own interests when navigating a very difficult urban environment, in terms of regulation, in terms of the politics itself that they live in on a day-to-day basis.

Smith Ouma Very, very, very fascinating. And that’s a very interesting example that you give there. And just to finalise our question around how you see the domain, informal settlements, changing in the next five years, in terms of how inhabitants in Kampala’s informal settlements will be able to access basic services? Do you see any pertinent changes in the next five years, sitting where you are?

Peter Kasaija They’re definitely going to be changes. And one of the most obvious changes is that some informal settlements will disappear because we’ve been talking about a typology of informal settlements. Informal settlements in Kampala, and in other cities elsewhere across Africa, they are not homogenous, they’re very heterogeneous. The kinds of pressures they face – social, environmental, political, economic pressures – they’re very different. So what we are likely to see is that informal settlements that are very close to the city centre will probably be overtaken by economic, political, economic interests, because for as long as they are located on high-value land, there’s no way that, in spite of their connections to the ruling government or support for the NRM, we can feasibly see these settlements still in these particular localities. So that is one of the sobering realities for some settlements that are very close to the CBD. Now, the big questions, or the significant questions, are for those informal settlements that are slightly away from the CBD, which might not necessarily face the same socioeconomic pressures, but for them it’s more about the political environmental pressures. We cannot say definitively how things will change or transform for these particular settlements in the future, because it could go either way; it could go the other way if we see a new government. Again, it very much depends on the ideology of the city government that comes in. If a new city government head comes in and this person deems that informal settlements should be removed from the city, that could also create a different dynamic. If we are seeing a different government that takes a similar stance to the kind of government we have, which is taking more of a go-slow approach, that is not radical when it comes to informal settlements, because they are borrowing a leaf from the previous city government which was a little more radical, was, I think, pushing out informal settlements out of the city, but they got a rebuke, a reprimand from the president and eventually the ED was forced to resign. So the new city government that has come in, it’s more of a non-barking dog. It’s a guard dog, but it’s not really doing much. It’s not really doing anything. It’s more of “let us keep the status quo”. So if we do have a similar government, we’ll probably have more informal settlements or expansion of the existing informal settlements. But the likely scenario would be that as they expand, there’ll be even a greater demand for more services to be expanded into these settlements, because they are making up more than 80% of the resident population in the city. So the future we are seeing is that if the settlements just outside of the city do expand and grow, as is expected, if they are not pushed out by the next city government and we retain the same ideology, we’re probably going to see a scenario where they’ll be forced to expand services, so that they can cover the demographic deluge that will be seen, because even as of now, they are contributing the greatest percentage of the resident population in the city. And the only way that the city can actually improve the welfare or create a certain image is by expanding services in these areas. And we are having a metropolitan region expanding, the affluent, the middle-income are moving out of the city. So, while we don’t expect that all these informal settlements in the city will expand exponentially, the fact that the population living in the city will more or less be mostly informal, there will be that pressure to expand services and provide them in those settlements. And that could also transform and also lead us to a different kind of character of informal settlements. Because the danger with the expansion of these services, and these informal settlements as they grow, is the aspect of gentrification, the attraction of commercial interests or capitalist interests, who come in and push them away. So those are some of the big questions we have still yet to really grapple with.

Smith Ouma Indeed. Thank you. And from what I hear from you, so the geographical location of the informal settlements, the politics, the political dynamics, both at the city and national level, and the inhabitants themselves, how they will respond to these dynamics, are important factors that we need to pay attention to, in trying to see how these settlements evolve.

Peter Kasaija Exactly. The conjunction of the local-level politics with city-level politics and national-level politics will play a very important role in shaping the character of these settlements in the next five, six, ten years to come. Because, as I explained a little more specifically, it will very much have a lot to do – how is the population growing? What are the needs? And if the population is growing, there are certain needs that have emerged. If we do expand social services, social service delivery into these neighbourhoods, what is going to be the unintended impact, in terms of gentrification, in terms of value capture and the change in terms of how these particular settlements are valued, for example, from a national political level? Because ultimately what we found out from our research is that the electoral benefits of informal settlements in the city are not really the priority for the NRM government. If the economic benefits outweigh the electoral benefits for the NRM government, it’s a no-brainer. They would definitely just go with the economic benefits because for them it’s about “how can we be able to accrue the economic benefits so that we can stay in power?” And money is very important beyond capturing the city as an NRM support base, because the reality is, it appears that it’s a gone case – they cannot be able to wrestle it back from the opposition. They’ve tried, with the recentralisation of the city government, but the last ten years has shown that very little has changed in terms of substantive political electoral support for the NRM. So it will mostly move to what outweighs the other. And for as long as the economic benefits outweigh the electoral benefits, we’ll probably see some of these informal settlements disappearing.

Smith Ouma Okay, great. Thank you so much, Peter. That’s very fascinating. And thank you for joining us and for sharing these very interesting insights around informal settlements in Kampala.

Peter Kasaija Thank you very much Smith. I was delighted to be able to share my experiences with you.

Smith Ouma Thank you. You’ve been listening to the African Cities podcast. Remember to subscribe for more urban development insights and interviews from the African Cities Research Consortium.